TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
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02-05-05 11:20 PM - Post#3375
Radio announcers report no Dartmouth band or cheerleaders and arena only half fullfor the Penn game. What's the matter with the Big Green? You would think after a big win over Princeton the school would be out to support the team. Incidentally, the Penn band and cheerleaders made the long trip from Philadelphia.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-06-05 08:58 AM - Post#3376
In response to TomPittsburgh
*shrug* it's a hockey town. Hey, I give them credit, that was the largest student turnout I've ever seen at a Dartmouth game.
(I'd appreciate a little better security in the future though)
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d92
Freshman
Posts: 23
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-06-05 08:12 PM - Post#3377
In response to The Willow
It doesn't appear that attendance at the Palestra for Penn games this year has been very good...why don't you worry about that instead?
FYI, box score had attendance at 1,605 -- that would be over 75% of capacity.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-06-05 09:02 PM - Post#3378
In response to d92
The difference is that at Penn, people are complaining when attendance for a single game slips to double the 1605 you find so impressive.
Here's the league home attendance averages for the year so far:
Penn 3930
Pton 3773
Brown 1159
Yale 1101
Col 1030
Dart 873
Har 847
Cor 647
Your "big" crowd may have been 75% of Leed's tiny capacity, but it's not even 50% of Penn's average.
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d92
Freshman
Posts: 23
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-06-05 10:25 PM - Post#3379
In response to Chip Bayers
Chip:
Let's put a little context to those figures before they get to your head.
1) Penn's attendance is inflated by the St. Joes (7,452), LaSalle and Drexel games where a substantial number of the fans are from the other school.
2) Penn has 19,000 students: 10,000 undergrad and 9,000 grad, and is located in a big city with a ton of alums. Dartmouth has around 5,000 undergrad and grad students and is located in a small town with relatively few alums.
3) The Palestra seats 8,700+.
4) Penn is 11-7, Dartmouth is 5-14.
Frankly, Penn's figures are pretty poor in light of these facts. Do us a favor and do a little more in-depth research before you post stuff like that here.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-06-05 10:48 PM - Post#3380
In response to d92
Since there are about a dozen factors that influence differences in attendance, this is sorta a silly argument.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-06-05 11:50 PM - Post#3381
In response to d92
If you're going to lecture somebody about doing "in-depth research," maybe you shouldn't have done such a superficial job yourself.
You want context?
* The St. Joe's game with the numbers you so eagerly cite wasn't a Penn home gome, so it isn't inflating the Penn average.
* The Drexel game was 2 nights before Thanksgiving, when the campus was already emptying out, so that number was actually below what it would have been on a "normal" night.
* Even the LaSalle game wasn't a true "home" game, since it was part of the Big Five Classic, so impossible to read as either a net positive or negative.
* If student population is supposed to be some sort of benchmark, then let's look at student-to-attendance ratios. Using the figures you cite, Penn's average crowd this year - in a year when there were not big pre-season expectations for the team - is roughly 20% of the student community size. And the point about Penn being in a city is that there are multiple other entertainment options available when Penn plays at home, including (often) multiple other college basketball games.
* Dartmouth's average crowd this year is only 17% of your student population numbers. And you know as well as I do that the range of entertainment options in Hanover for both students and area residents is, shall we say, rather limited compared to what's available in a major metropolitan area.
Saturday night, your men's hockey was on the road, your women's hockey was over by the time the basketball game tipped, and yet you couldn't even get a total crowd even 1/3 the size of your student population, despite the energy generated the previous night by one of the biggest wins in the program's last 10 years. Where the heck was everybody?
I think what Terry Dunn has done so far, particularly given the loss of Pattman, is very encouraging for Dartmouth basketball. But The Willow is right - if your band and your cheerleaders can't even be bothered to show up the night after you upset Princeton, your problems are far worse than any you think Penn might be having this year.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 12:06 AM - Post#3382
In response to TomPittsburgh
Bad enough that Dartmouth's band and cheerleaders don't show. What was really embarrassing were the two Dartmouth administrators telling the Penn Band they couldn't play since Dartmouth didn't have a band there.
Thankfully, that idiocy was cleared up and the Penn band was allowed to play...occasionally.
In fact the Dartmouth fan in front of me enjoyed the Penn Band. Made it seem like a college basketball game.
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TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 12:23 AM - Post#3383
In response to SFlaQuaker
In-depth research? Are you kidding? This isn't rocket science. Or, maybe it is for you!
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ballfan01
goober
Posts: 51
Loc: New England
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 01:44 AM - Post#3384
In response to Howard Gensler
Sorry Howard, that's not quite what was said. But ya'll can take that for what it's worth. A whole lotta nothing. What are you hating on?
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 02:43 AM - Post#3385
In response to ballfan01
not quite what was said.... but pretty close.
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d92
Freshman
Posts: 23
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 02:52 AM - Post#3386
In response to TomPittsburgh
This will be my last post on the subject.
Chip:
In the interest of toning this down somewhat, I'll stick to my points in response to your post and avoid the extra commentary in my previous post.
1) The relevant denominator is not just student population...you also have to add local alumni, IMO. Penn has far more local alums than Dartmouth.
2) You cite low expectations for the Penn team. The expectations for the Dartmouth team were about 10x lower.
3) The LaSalle game (7724), as a Big 5 game with a ton of non-Penn fans, skews the Penn attendance figures upwards. Take that game out, as you seem to suggest, and the Penn figures are much lower.
4) Citing attendance figures in a vacuum, as you did, is misleading.
I'd also add that the Penn-Dartmouth women's b-ball game at the Palestra on Sat. night drew 719. The Penn women are the defending Ivy champs and this game was for 1st place. Dartmouth women's basketball has drawn over 1,000 for each of its home Ivy contests this season.
Neither Penn nor Dartmouth should be particularly proud of the home attendance figures this year for men's basketball. In Dartmouth's case, years of losing will do that to a program. One shocking upset is great, but reviving overall interest is a gradual process. As for Penn's attendance, you won't see me on the Penn board criticizing Penn fans when you have a poorly attended game. Patronizing posts like TomPittsburgh's are unnecessary and uncalled for. Why can't you just enjoy the fact that Penn is now in a commanding position for the Ivy title and quit the Dartmouth bashing?
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ballfan01
goober
Posts: 51
Loc: New England
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 04:11 AM - Post#3387
In response to The Willow
Well which part did you hear? Because I know exactly word for word what was said. And that wasn't it.
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Mlc882
newbie
Posts: 6
Reg: 02-01-05
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 04:14 AM - Post#3388
In response to d92
Maybe the low attendance at Dartmouth does indeed have to do with the restrictive policies on "fun" imposed by the Dartmouth administration.
Why wasn't the Penn Band allowed to perform? Even if it is the opposing band, as a previous poster stated it creates more of a true "college basketball" atmosphere. Was it really necessary to fit in as many atonal hip-hop beats as possible during breaks in play?
Then again, maybe it is the Big Green fans. Stealing cheerleaders' megaphones and making fun of Penn's cheerleaders? Total lack of class. No wonder nobody shows up to Dartmouth games.
This is nothing personal against Dartmouth, so don't get angry at me for bashing the school. I'm just adding my 2 cents about the game on Saturday.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 04:38 AM - Post#3389
In response to Mlc882
To be fair, we were allowed to play. 2 songs per half, which, though skimpy, is more than what's set aside in conferences where visiting schools aren't even allowed to BRING a band.
Yeah, it's annoying, considering we did drive a total of about 16 hrs in 2 days, and considering the amount of time we set aside for visiting bands in the Palestra, but there's a lot of inter-school politicking at play. I can understand them not wanting us to overshadow the Dartmouth fans, we're a loud, rowdy bunch.
I was far more put off by the administrators' lack of zeal in protecting the Cheerleaders and their property. If a stunt like that had been pulled against the opposing school's cheerleaders in the Palestra, security would not have let them get away with it... and if it had been pulled against ours, security would have to have beaten the students to the punch. (pun intended) 
I don't blame the true Dartmouth fans for this, apparently there was some student giveaway or something that attracted more than your usual suspects. But the uncaring response of the security was frustrating. Oh well, at least we didn't have anything thrown at us (like at Brown).
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Mlc882
newbie
Posts: 6
Reg: 02-01-05
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 04:54 AM - Post#3390
In response to The Willow
Well then, maybe the administration is the problem moreso than the fans. If they aren't making an effort to make Dartmouth a fun, safe place to see a game, for both home and away fans, then there's no reason to go. I think that even home fans would be turned off by disallowing the band to play and not exactly discouraging rowdy behavior, even from students.
And how about those annoying kids who kept yelling that BC could beat Penn, and how they didn't care about Dartmouth? Woo. Fun.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 04:59 AM - Post#3391
In response to Mlc882
Quote:
And how about those annoying kids who kept yelling that BC could beat Penn, and how they didn't care about Dartmouth? Woo. Fun.
Aww, they were cute. The redheaded one told me I'm the most annoying person he's ever seen. Which I took as a huge compliment.
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Mlc882
newbie
Posts: 6
Reg: 02-01-05
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 05:02 AM - Post#3392
In response to The Willow
[sigh]
Willow, you DO know who this is, right? The screen name really should give it away.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 05:04 AM - Post#3393
In response to Mlc882
I know exactly who it is. Doesn't mean you aren't overreacting.
Quote:
[sigh]
Willow, you DO know who this is, right? The screen name really should give it away.
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ballfan01
goober
Posts: 51
Loc: New England
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Penn Game
02-07-05 11:43 AM - Post#3394
In response to The Willow
If this is what you guys have to complain about, you need something new. Really. Don't come next time if you are so put off by the "unsafe conditions" that your band and cheerleaders are subjected to. OMG.
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