Stripes
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Boston
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-09-05 02:53 AM - Post#3596
I realize that this group has surprised you with how little they know about the Princeton offense. They certainly knew nothing of the Princeton defense that you were taught. So you've had to work with these guys a lot. And it's been hard. But there are some things that you really need to work on.
1) Coach Carril didn't believe in offensive rebounds. Whether it was because a fast break bucket gave him fits or just because he wanted to keep the pace slow, he sent everybody back when a shot went up. But stop and think about this, Joe. Does it make sense? What is the value of 5-10 offensive boards in a game vs. the risk of a couple of fast break buckets the other way? Break down some film of some other teams and see whether there are more points scored as a result of offensive boards or points given up as a result of fast breaks. You could start with film from the 03-04 Tigers. Those should be easily accessible tapes. I chuckled through my agony tonight when, in overtime and down by 1, your players instinctively headed back down court when a shot was launched and an offensive rebound would have been kind of nice.
2) I believe that there is one coaching move that lost you the Harvard and Penn games (which I saw, and perhaps the Dartmouth game which I did not). And it's the same move. And, again, it is something you learned from Coach Carril - don't trust freshman, leave the game to your experienced players and they'll figure it out. Andre Logan - who I admire and respect and feel badly for (since his promising career didn't quite turn out the way we all would have liked) - was exhausted at the end of the Harvard and Penn games. Check out the tapes of those games. See him not box out? See Cusworth grab that missed free throw (front end of the one-and-one by the way) and hit that bunny? See some Quaker (sorry, I couldn't read the number as I was holding my head) do the same? Where was Andre on the press break? Oh, did you see the replay of Ibby's steal? Why is he dribbling over there? He's trying to keep the play moving, but he's tired, Coach. See his wide open three late against the Quakers? It barely reached the rim since he had no legs left. Watch the way he runs back on the court after a time out. He's tired and a bit slow and a bit rusty and should have been on the bench. Not dribbling the ball as regulation time expires.
3) How is it possible that a Division I team doesn't have a press break? Isn't the point of the baseline pass to throw the opposing team off? If you use it EVERY time and run the same motion EVERY time, why do it? And what about the personnel? Check out the film again, Coach. See what you did when Wallace sits down with his 4th foul? You brought in Owings (okay, he's slow too, but at least he can hit a big shot and his legs are fresh), but you brought him in for Schafer! You're getting killed on the press break and you go with a lineup of Greenman, Venable (who you know is a wonderful player, but prone to passes that are off the mark and untimely turnovers), Logan (exhausted), Owings, and Stephens???? I know it's a pressure cooker, but is that really the group that you want to break the press?
4) Finally, Coach, you've got to lay off of the refs. Especially DeMayo. From what I've seen, you are almost always right, but it isn't working. They don't like you, Joe, they don't like being yelled at the way you yell at them. And that fifth foul on Judson was all about you, Coach. And maybe a little bit of Judson (doesn't look like DeMayo's a big fan of Judson's either). Wait till you check out the film. Danley created lower body contact well before the hook. I don't think that call goes the way it did if you hadn't had trouble with DeMayo before (at Holy Cross, Temple, etc.).
Joe, I'm a huge fan. Princeton basketball is very important to me and to many others. You don't need to be Pete. I love the fact that the fundamentals are important again. I love the fact that the (ever overlooked) defense is back. But there are deficiencies, Joe. Make it better. Watch the film. Yes, Joe, you have been "this close", but it isn't working. Learn, adapt, improve, change. And good luck.
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Anonymous
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 03:15 AM - Post#3597
In response to Stripes
Interesting post.
I'd like to reply to the issue of the press break. I did not see the Dartmouth or Harvard games, but I was at the Palestra this evening.
From my perspective (high up behind the basket with some non-productive black box perched on a pole in front of me), Princeton lost because they were completely unable to handle Penn's press. Period. It was amazingly effective, to the point that Princeton looked exhausted near the end. Especially Venable. So I concur with the previous post.
But regarding freshmen, I don't really remember that being the Carril way at all. Mueller, Mooney, Lewullis all got serious minutes as freshmen. Tonight, Logan played well. Owings didn't. Schafer did. I don't think that's the issue here.
There's just something about this crop of players that can't put teams away. It was a problem with JTIII teams as well, so don't blame Scott. Maybe it's character, maybe it's conditioning, maybe something else. I can't tell from the stands.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 03:28 AM - Post#3598
In response to
I had a great sideline view of the press, and there are a few things that made it possible:
-Greenman played a good game, but he's still just way too small to throw over a press
-Even when Princeton did break the press and have a 2-1 or 3-2, they slowed the ball back to the top of the key, so Penn never had any repercussions when the press didn't work
-Venable seemed unwilling to just take the ball up himself when he had one-on-one coverate, often slowing the ball or swinging it back to Greenman, allowing the press to recover
-The big men are too far downcourt, taking away what could be a good outlet option
I'm actually surprised teams don't press Princeton more, with such a short point guard and reluctance to take advantage of breaking the press. Maybe they'll start to now.
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TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 03:36 AM - Post#3599
In response to SFlaQuaker
I don't think there is any doubt that the press turned it around for Penn.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 04:13 AM - Post#3600
In response to TomPittsburgh
Here is what Coach Scott said after the game:
"We threw it away, we walked with it. The answer is easy- I'd like to see our guys not throw the ball away and not walk with it. Guys were open all over the place ... Once you get the ball in bounds its five guys against five guys. You've got to pass the ball to your own teammates and you can't give it away. Obviously we didn't do that and they capitalized on it."
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 05:27 AM - Post#3601
In response to Stripes
Aside from the obvious failure to attack the press in any meaningful way, the thing that stunned me was the approach taken when the Tigers had the ball with 0:31 left in regulation and the score tied. All of us looked at each other and said, OK, they're going to give it to Venable and let him take it to the hole.
Instead, Venable touched it three times on that possession and immediately gave it up each time. In the end, Logan was left to try something from the top of the circle with a man guarding him closely. It would seem to me that Logan is the last guy you want with the ball in that situation.
Why not use your best weapon?
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Pennsylvania69
Junior
Posts: 206
Loc: Chester County, PA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 11:16 AM - Post#3602
In response to Ancient Quaker
No one seemed to want to be the guy who missed the shot. I think that's why they played hot potato with the ball. I think that it's as simple as that.
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 11:52 AM - Post#3603
In response to Pennsylvania69
That doesn't sound like the Venable I've watched for four years.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 02:01 PM - Post#3604
In response to Ancient Quaker
I think the Tigers tried to play it a bit too smart on that final possession. They wanted to put the shot up as late as possible. Worst case scenario is OT, but it means that Penn doesn't get a chance to win in regulation. That's sort of fine but the margin for error is so small that you can easily find the ball in the wrong guys hands as the clock ticks down. Contrary to the given wisdom I think the correct play for Princeton in that situation would have been to look for the first open shot and take it. With the way the last 7 minutes had gone, OT was a horrible option. If the shot didn't go in so be it-- the coach would get criticized but so what?
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 02:29 PM - Post#3605
In response to Red n Blue
I can't say I agree. In fact, based on how the last 7 minutes went, there's even more reason to run the clock down. Penn was clicking on all cylinders, and it would have been incredibly unwise to give them a shot to win. I do fully agree that the ball should have been in Venable's hands, but there's no way you can give the ball back to Penn.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 02:47 PM - Post#3606
In response to Ancient Quaker
I disagree in a sense. Obviously Venable is the first guy you'd want with the ball, but if you're looking for somebody to drive, Logan on a big man is the 2nd choice with Wallace out. I actually thought that was by design (ie, everyone expects Venable to get the ball, and you have one other guy who can score off the dribble, so give him a chance for the win one on one).
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 04:29 PM - Post#3607
In response to Pennsylvania69
You hit the nail on the head. They are all afraid of getting cussed by Scott.
Bob Medina
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 06:06 PM - Post#3608
In response to SFlaQuaker
Exactly. Venable last touched the ball with about 11 seconds left. I say, he holds it, surveys what he has and takes it to the basket. The worst that happens is he misses, and lots of good things (for Princeton) are more probable than that.
No way you let Logan drive -- the guy was exhausted and has a gimpy leg!
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-09-05 11:11 PM - Post#3609
In response to Ancient Quaker
Apparently, the plan was to post up Venable but they could not get him the ball. Scott was afraid of an offensive foul as happened at Harvard. I think in that situation, you have to spread the floor and let Venable drive and trust him to be under control. After the Temple goaltend and the Harvard charge call, he was overdue for a decent break on that play. Even if Penn was looking for it, if they collapsed on him, he would have dished to the open man for an open shot.
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-10-05 01:32 AM - Post#3610
In response to Brian Martin
I agree. But Venable made no attempt to post up. He was 20 feet from the basket the entire possession. And he had three touches during the possession, giving it up readily each time. It appeared that he was not the one designated to take the shot.
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Anonymous
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-10-05 02:06 PM - Post#3611
In response to
Quote:
Interesting post.
I'd like to reply to the issue of the press break. I did not see the Dartmouth or Harvard games, but I was at the Palestra this evening.
From my perspective (high up behind the basket with some non-productive black box perched on a pole in front of me), Princeton lost because they were completely unable to handle Penn's press. Period. It was amazingly effective, to the point that Princeton looked exhausted near the end. Especially Venable. So I concur with the previous post.
But regarding freshmen, I don't really remember that being the Carril way at all. Mueller, Mooney, Lewullis all got serious minutes as freshmen. Tonight, Logan played well. Owings didn't. Schafer did. I don't think that's the issue here.
There's just something about this crop of players that can't put teams away. It was a problem with JTIII teams as well, so don't blame Scott. Maybe it's character, maybe it's conditioning, maybe something else. I can't tell from the stands.
Hi Mike, good to see you. 
I'm also puzzled by the inability to break the press, as I don't remember Carril's teams of our era having ANY problem with ANY press, from Peter Roby's Harvard teams right on up to Nolan Richardson's 40 Minutes of Hell. (And the point is well made that when you beat a press, you need to make the opponent pay instead of falling immediately into your high-post offense.) Perhaps it's just that George Leftwich and Sean Jackson were better ball-handlers and decision-makers than our current group of guards. Maybe there's more. I agree with the first post that we seemed to run the same play each time.
One thing that hurt us badly in the last seven minutes was that we'd used up all but one of our timeouts by that point. That severely limited our options while trying to break the press.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-10-05 02:11 PM - Post#3612
In response to
The biggest problem is Greenman. Whether you like his basketball abilities or not, you can't argue that he's small. He was trapped by Danley and one of our guard, usually Oz or Begley, who are both much much taller, so he could not throw over the top.
In general, I don't have a problem with Scott telling them to slow it up and run the clock down. But after the Quakers cut it down to about 9 and Princeton could not get anything going on offense, maybe they should have tried to push it a little more. I'm not saying driving on two guys, but if a 2 on 1 presents itself or Venable is isolated against any Penn defender on the wing, they should have tried to create something.
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Anonymous
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-10-05 02:20 PM - Post#3613
In response to SFlaQuaker
many players react to a double-team by dribbling out of the trap. I would think that this is particularly effective when the defenders are taller than the player with the ball. Why wasn't Greenman doing this?
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Anonymous
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-10-05 02:29 PM - Post#3614
In response to
Point well made, Craig. Greenman might be an inch or two shorter than Sean Jackson (barely), but I don't remember Sean ever being successfully trapped. Then again, Sean was a good deal stronger than Greenman.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dear Coach Scott
02-10-05 02:53 PM - Post#3615
In response to
Then I guess this brings us to the point of the inbounds pass going towards the corner. There really wasn't any room for him to dribble out. If you bring a big man back to the foul line, the court opens up much more. Especially if you consider that Princeton's known for having big men that can pass.
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