puck
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-12-05 05:00 AM - Post#3970
Princeton is a team is crisis. It's a collective nervous breakdown, body language says it all. Joe Scott has backed off (it seems) berating his players in public...and, yet, there still seems a kind of fear (an unwillingness to take the shot) and a kind of (team) numb-ness to all that's going on. What, pray tell, is happening? Why the exhaustion? The confusion? If I wrote the script I'd call it mutiny; no, it's some form of psychological collapse. Is it true Scot called for a three hour afternoon practice before the Friday evening homegame loss to Brown? Or, is it that Brown, Harvard, Dartmouth, Penn, and now Cornell, are just better teams?...and much ado about nothing? And give Scott a chance, a couple of years with his own picked players and time for that "toughness" to settle in? Cornell 66 Princeton 58: a depressing thing to watch tonight. Was I reading something else on the faces of Judson Wallace, Will Venable, Scot Greenman, and Savage and Luke Owings?...Or, really, was it simply confused frustration out there?
But, Scott was a nicer more humane Scott tonight. That's something to build on. And, I think, the right place to start.
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puck
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 05:19 AM - Post#3971
In response to puck
Correction: should be, "Princeton is a team in crisis."
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YaleEli
goober
Posts: 62
Loc: Greenwich, CT
Reg: 12-07-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 05:19 AM - Post#3972
In response to puck
I'm insulted. You didn't include the Bulldogs on your list of teams that are just better than Princeton.
This year, at least, we are a better team than the Tigers (in fact, every other Ivy team is better)! The standings don't lie.
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Titania
newbie
Posts: 2
Reg: 01-13-05
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 01:34 PM - Post#3973
In response to YaleEli
Princeton came on strong at the Palestra, like they should have played all year. But big guys wore out and some younger players should have been plugged in earlier while we had a good lead and the psychological edge.
Tigers are a great team and have it all, but Scott made some devastating errors. A timeout should have been called to stop the crowd tsunami when the tables turned.
With Cornell, our shooting was off, and defense just spun its wheels over and over. What tools did the coaches give the players to deal with this? The players were great, but there's a malady, a sick dynamic between coach and team. Part of it is getting sensitized and used to each other, but mostly it's on Scott.
What's happening? What are the players saying behind walls, what's Harrison Schaen hearing, thinking? What's the future decision of these dedicated hard driving young men? Let's pull it together, get some unity of spirit so we can end the season feeling better than we do now.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 02:38 PM - Post#3974
In response to puck
Actually it was a 4 hour practice with weights afterward. The team has had very little practice on offense and it shows. The defensive zone gets Wallace or Stevens out front allowing mucho rebounds. Watch when they come out and you'll see the other team drive and the offensive rebounds are made easy. I don't recall one man to man defense so the other team sees the same defense all game. In all these games, Scott has been out coached.
Where was the time out at Penn with 31 seconds left to set the offense? Scott has this team afraid to shoot. Better to pass than miss and get shouted at by Scott.
18-1, 10-4, 21-3 and 20-0 runs just don't happen or shouldn't.
Scott is a perfect example of how not to lead. Ask any manager. Ask the players. Ask their parents.
Bob Medina
PS Princeton has never had a losing season in Ivy League play. We will this year.
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Colorado Tiger
Sophomore
Posts: 182
Loc: Colorado Springs, Colorad...
Reg: 02-12-05
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 03:13 PM - Post#3975
In response to bobmed
I live in Colorado so I cannot ask the players. But someone else seems to have and here is the response he received:
Greenman was insistent, however, that the players were to blame for
not playing with fire and verve. "I love Coach Scott." said Greenman.
"He has the least amount to do with this than anybody. Coach Scott
can't make up for us coming out lackadaisical and not playing with
emotion in a position where we could defend our home court. That's on
the players...we know what we're not doing well and we know how to
fix it. We just have to do it"
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 03:32 PM - Post#3976
In response to Colorado Tiger
No player is going to slam the coach in public.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 03:42 PM - Post#3977
In response to bobmed
For whatever reason (and maybe you guys can fill us non-Princeton types in on it), Wallace played only 25 minutes last night. He's too important to the Princeton club to spend that much time sitting.
It seems to me that one of the marks of a good coach is the ability to adapt. If you see things aren't working, to try some other things. In the paper today, Scott is quoted as saying something like 'if we scrapped some things the players would say I gave up on them.' It sounds like he thinks of it as an all-or-nothing proposition rather than a matter of tweaking things to get to something that works.
Last year Scott went 22-7 at Air Force, but going in to last year his record was 29-56. Maybe you have to go through a lot of pain with him to get to where you want to be.
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Stripes
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Boston
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 04:14 PM - Post#3978
In response to Red n Blue
Quote:
For whatever reason (and maybe you guys can fill us non-Princeton types in on it), Wallace played only 25 minutes last night. He's too important to the Princeton club to spend that much time sitting.
It seems to me that one of the marks of a good coach is the ability to adapt. If you see things aren't working, to try some other things.
I think you answered your own question here. Wallace committed 3 turnovers in under 3 minutes during the 20-0 stretch. It wasn't working, so Scott brought in Stephens. Stephens broke the 20-0 run by getting an offensive rebound and hitting two free throws.
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light blue heavy
maximus
Posts: 164
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 04:40 PM - Post#3979
In response to Stripes
wallace fouled out. nothing to do with Scott's decision. it looks like Taylor and rourke were too much for him.
I also wonder just how badly he is hurt. He put on a display against Penn's big guys, but he has been inconsistent. whats up?
I imagine he'll be a terror against Columbia tonight. I still have to think that Princeton will be favored.
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Phil
Freshman
Posts: 75
Loc: Princeton
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 04:56 PM - Post#3980
In response to light blue heavy
Judson fouled out with 30sec to go, his time on the bench had nothing to do with foul trouble.
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 06:04 PM - Post#3981
In response to YaleEli
How do you explain your pathetic loss?
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 06:07 PM - Post#3982
In response to bobmed
Leave that to you. You seem to forget Scott built an amazingly successful program at Air Force from nothing.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 06:15 PM - Post#3983
In response to T71
And here he has taken an amazingly successful program and turned it into nothing.
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 06:27 PM - Post#3984
In response to bobmed
Ridiculous! Your impatience and alarmism is absurd. You know, maybe the players have something to do with it. Maybe they aren't as good as you thought. Maybe the margin of error wasn't all that great. The team lost Schaen & Persia. Logan is nowhere near the player he once was. Owings was hurt. Apparently, Wallace is hurt. Talk about fair weather fans. Hysteria reins.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 06:37 PM - Post#3985
In response to T71
I am anything but a fair weather fan. But I am not blind either. I refer you to the post by a Penn fan in the next thread. I, for one, do not think yelling and screaming and berating players without any encouragement is an effective way to coach. Hysteria does not rein here, but common sense does.
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 06:47 PM - Post#3986
In response to bobmed
Right.
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Anonymous
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 07:12 PM - Post#3987
In response to light blue heavy
One thing I will agree with Bob on is that Scott's much vaunted "amoeba" defense is not working well. I just don't see the wisdom in sticking with one defense 100% of the time, especially when it's not working. It does drag Princeton's big men away from the basket. Last night, Cornell was able to work the ball well inside taking advantage of size mismatches.
I think Craig Haley had it right in this morning Trenton Times. Scott has been too rigid both in terms of offensive and defensive strategies. He inherited a veteran team. Why not let them play in a way that is best suited to their strengths? After this season Scott may be able to build a team more suited to his preferred style.
This being said, I do think the players were responsible in part for last night's collapse. There is no excuse for the turnovers and the poor decisions they made on the court last night in the second half. It was Jekyll and Hyde last night. The first half they played very well and shot the ball well. The second half they threw the ball away repeatedly and seemed nervous anytime someone guarded them closely.
Otherwise, last night we saw a comparatively subdued Scott on the bench. Compare that with Donahue who was a maniac most of the game and made Scott look like a choir boy.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 09:29 PM - Post#3988
In response to
When little time is devoted to offense (as of the Yale game, they had not practiced the offense at all), turnovers under pressure are to expected.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 09:34 PM - Post#3989
In response to light blue heavy
Princeton is favored by 11.5 tonight and has been favored in all the Ivy games except the Penn game - which ironically was the only game they covered the spread. I don't bet on the games.
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Colorado Tiger
Sophomore
Posts: 182
Loc: Colorado Springs, Colorad...
Reg: 02-12-05
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Re: Collapse ?
02-12-05 11:44 PM - Post#3990
In response to bobmed
Are you suggesting that Princeton had not spent ANY time on offense since the beginning of the season? or that *since* the Yale game they have not spent any time on offense?
And in response to an ealier post, assuming a player is unlikely to criticize his coach in public as you suggest, it is reasonable to also assume he is unlikely to publicly confess his love for his coach if he in fact cannot stand him, fears him or has been abused by him as you claim.
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Redfish
Masters Student
Posts: 767
Loc: under a bridge in Phoenix...
Reg: 11-26-04
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Actually, it's the inability to handle the press
02-13-05 01:55 PM - Post#3991
In response to puck
And that weakness lies with the point guard.
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Warrior
newbie
Posts: 49
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Actually, it's the inability to handle the press
02-13-05 02:56 PM - Post#3992
In response to Redfish
Quote:
And that weakness lies with the point guard.
Just imagine how bad it would be if Osmundson was running the point... the horrors...
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1345
Reg: 12-08-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-14-05 07:51 PM - Post#3993
In response to bobmed
Quote:
Princeton has never had a losing season in Ivy League play. We will this year.
I'm incurable optimist - after all, it's Valentine's Day, what would you be if you had 3 ex-wives? - but I believe there's an excellent chance the Tigers finish second or third with a 9-5 record.
And don't think Penn won't be a little nervous coming to Jadwin with their seeding on the line (yes, I'm afraid I see no chance they will blow up this season).
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-14-05 07:59 PM - Post#3994
In response to sparman
Princeton could have an NIT bid on the line at the same time.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-15-05 01:39 AM - Post#3995
In response to sparman
Quote:
I'm incurable optimist - after all, it's Valentine's Day, what would you be if you had 3 ex-wives? - but I believe there's an excellent chance the Tigers finish second or third with a 9-5 record.
Wow...you get that out of a win over a Columbia team that has lost four in a row? You think all the problems from the losses to Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn and Cornell are fixed and the Tigers will win out? That seems to be an awfully bold statement given the Tigers' recent troubles and the fact that much of the 2nd half of the season is on the road. I expect the Tigers may play better in the second half but winning 4 of 7 would be more in line with what I'd expect.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21193
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-15-05 02:33 AM - Post#3996
In response to SFlaQuaker
Funny to think that the Tigers currently have a better shot at an NCAA bid (Kate Moss slim, and growing more anorexic by the week) than an NIT bid (zero--can't possibly happen).
If nothing else, however, the seniors will make it tough for Penn in their swan song.
Quote:
Princeton could have an NIT bid on the line at the same time.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-15-05 01:46 PM - Post#3997
In response to YaleEli
I think the key criteria for making Puck's list was actually beating Princeton. Yale is one of two teams who failed to do so, and after a competitive first half, it wasn't very close.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1345
Reg: 12-08-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-15-05 05:34 PM - Post#3998
In response to Red n Blue
You're new around these parts, aren't you?
Modesty does not permit me to recount my many previous triumphant observations. Nor, as a Tiger, am I permitted to disclose the source of wisdom, but unfortunately, as a quaker, you are forever precluded from such access. There is hope for your children, however.
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sparman
PhD Student
Posts: 1345
Reg: 12-08-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-15-05 05:45 PM - Post#3999
In response to puck
..
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Collapse ?
02-18-05 03:43 AM - Post#4000
In response to sparman
Quote:
You're new around these parts, aren't you?
Modesty does not permit me to recount my many previous triumphant observations. Nor, as a Tiger, am I permitted to disclose the source of wisdom, but unfortunately, as a quaker, you are forever precluded from such access. There is hope for your children, however.
Don't be so sure. You haven't met my children.  At any rate, you're on the record and this should be a pretty good weekend to see if you are an oracle or a... non-oracle type thing.
And please, capitalize Quaker. It's only common courtesy. I would write, "The Tigers are in the cellar." But I would never write, "The tigers are in the cellar," because the latter would be disrespectful. Either that, or I would need to call animal control.
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