Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-12-05 03:41 PM - Post#4014
will Joe Scott come along and cut you loose?
This is crazy. Just absurd. You're Princeton, you won the Ivy Title last year and returned four seniors and brought in a good freshman class. And what's really freaky about your 5 losses is that there was no sign this was going to happen. No warning, no ridiculous losses to Loyola or "Friggin Monmouth" (TM - Chuck Daly) in the non-conf portion of the schedule. And then it all crashed down. Now, we can point blame wherever we want here. I lean towards the coach.
Oh sure, it COULD be the seniors fault. A bunch of punks that don't listen to reason and can never win. Oh wait, they DID win. They handled things just fine last year doing things their way, winning close, tough games in an honorable way. So, we're left with the Coach. The Coach has to get things done his way, has to break his players, with no proof that what he does is better than what JTIII did.
Anyway, the signs point towards the Coach being to blame, and from a Penn fan's perspective, I fervently hope it's the coach fault. Mainly because I don't like jerks that rule with an iron fist, but also because if it's the coach's fault, we can basically just rack up the next 4 (plus this year's) ivy titles with the recruiting class we have coming in. Personally, if I were you guys, I wouldn't take the risk, fire Scott now. But, you all are stubborn, and with the exception of Bob Medina and Rob, you're rallying around the coach. Admirable, if completely misguided.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 03:49 PM - Post#4015
In response to Jeff2sf
Of course the rejoinder is something like, "But he did so well at Air Force...he was Coach of the Year."
To me the most interesting stat is Scott's record at Air Force. He went 51-63 there, even including his 22-7 final year. That means he was 29-56 going into last year. Not exactly a stellar record.
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Anonymous
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 07:26 PM - Post#4016
In response to Red n Blue
Jeff, I know that taking careful, reasoned, and nuanced stands on anything these days is unpopular, but I hope you will admit that is possible to do so in this case. I have been and will continue to be critical of Scott. He certainly deserves it. However, it is also possible that the players deserve some criticism too.
In any case, I have also refused to engage in the hysteria and hyperbole regarding Scott on this board.
So, what are our alternatives at this point? Should we call on Walters to fire him immediately or after the season? Or should we hope that he can turn things around after he brings in a recruiting class or two? I guess, based on his work at Air Force, I'm willing to give him a shot at turning things around.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 09:02 PM - Post#4017
In response to
T.D.-- I agree that you can't just turn around and fire Scott now. It would have to come after the season-- maybe in the form of a conversation after which Scott leaves to "pursue other opportunities." If I were the Princeton administration I think I'd give him a recruiting class or two to turn things around, too. At the same time, I'd be really concerned about the fact that he took a team that was the favorite to win the league and somehow managed to get them off to a 1-5 start in the league. It's possible that if I knew what was really going on I would want to fire him immediately, but I agree that there isn't a lot to do at this point except suffering and hoping things will get better. I guess the question is how much you are willing to suffer.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 09:24 PM - Post#4018
In response to Red n Blue
The question is not how long we, the fans, can suffer, but how long can the players.
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Anonymous
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 10:00 PM - Post#4019
In response to Red n Blue
My initial reaction to all this is that firing Scott doesn't make any sense for all the usual reasons (give him another year or two, a couple of his own recruiting classes...etc.). But, the question made me wonder if there were any other situations where a highly regarded coach came into an established situation (not a mess, not coming off of a disappointing season, not devoid of experienced talent) and really bombed in his first year? Off the top of my head I can't think of any...but if there are, the obvious question is: did things get better thereafter or did the first year signal that something was really wrong? Even Rollie's folly at UNLV wasn't too bad the first year.
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 10:39 PM - Post#4020
In response to bobmed
The question is how long real fans and supporters can take the increible overreaction of some so called fans. I don't think Gary Walters is quite ready to give up on Joe Scott after a few losses. I think he has a much longer time horizon than 5 or 6 Ivy league games. I also think that players ultimately win and lose games. We can argue the relative stengths and weaknesses of this year's team, bad luck, injuries and Joe Scott's coaching but he is a highly regarded coach who has earned the right to coach at Princeton for at least the next several years. I get feeling that some people have too much of their own self worth tied up in the superiority of Princeton basketball and are letting the current problems affect their rational thought processes. Get a life. Having a losing season or not finishing in the top two in the league once every 20 years or so isn't the end of the world.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 10:49 PM - Post#4021
In response to T71
Quote:
I also think that players ultimately win and lose games. We can argue the relative stengths and weaknesses of this year's team, bad luck, injuries and Joe Scott's coaching but he is a highly regarded coach who has earned the right to coach at Princeton for at least the next several years.
If players ultimately win and lose championships, then why has Joe Scott earned the right to coach for a few years? Why is he well regarded? His players at Air Force won those games, no?
It's also not that you all are losing, it's how you're losing and how your coach is behaving so poorly and treating winning, loyal players so cruddily that has Bob n Rob up in arms.
Tiger Dave, I'll give you a more thought out response to your issues raised above later tonight or tomorrow.
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-12-05 11:14 PM - Post#4022
In response to Jeff2sf
Yeah, you're right, we should have fired Scott after the Brown loss. Don't count on 4 tiles in a row. It ain't happenin. So what are you doin on the PU board? Just showin your superiority as a Penn fan by gloating?
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 12:52 AM - Post#4023
In response to T71
Quote:
Yeah, you're right, we should have fired Scott after the Brown loss. Don't count on 4 tiles in a row. It ain't happenin. So what are you doin on the PU board? Just showin your superiority as a Penn fan by gloating?
Well, besides preachinG the value of the letter G to you heathens  , I'd once again point out that there are no such things as "boards". There are sections where posts are more appropriate than others. Since this topic was about how your program is very near falling into the abyss, I thought I'd post it on the Princeton section.
As for the 4 titles, you may be right. I mean, let's face it, the next three titles including this year are a foregone conclusion for Penn. The pattern of our league, prior to this year was that the main class that brings the title home to a P always takes the title until they graduate (I suppose we could debate the Lewullis/Earl senior year, but I don't view them as the primary class). The only reason this isn't happening this year is because Scott decided to disrespect his senior class and treat them like some unproven set of freshmen. Our title this year is owed to our sophomores. Given this class is only going to be reinforced by the best recruiting class in years for Penn, they will obviously win as juniors and seniors. So the question is how our incoming class will do as juniors without Ibby and Danley et al. I spoke too soon to just cede them those titles, you're right.
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 02:08 AM - Post#4024
In response to Jeff2sf
FYI, your graduation year isn't the University of Pennsylvania. That would be your undergraduate institution.
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Red n Blue
Masters Student
Posts: 898
Loc: South Jersey
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 03:27 AM - Post#4025
In response to T71
T71-- Why do you say Joe Scott has earned the right to coach Princeton? He's had one good year. Even with that one good year, his record was 51-63. The hire may have made sense for a lot of reasons, but it's not as though Princeton hired Dean Smith or someone with a long proven track record. I'm already on record as saying that unless there's something I don't already know, I'd see what the guy can do with a couple of recruiting classes. But please don't make this guy sound like he is owed something because he's the second coming of Pete Carrill.
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T71
Sophomore
Posts: 161
Loc: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 03:42 AM - Post#4026
In response to Red n Blue
Who said he was the second coming of Pete Carill (assuming that is a good thing)? He is owed something because he was hired to do a job after a tremendous building job at a school that had neither a basketball tradition nor any prior success. A normal commitment means at most schools at least 3 years or, in the past, more like 5 years. I find it interesting that Notre Dame was held in such contempt, and probably rightfully so, for firing Tyrone Willingham after 3 years when they previously only got rid of people, even Gerry Faust, after 5 years. Last time I looked, Princeton was in the Ivy League (not exactly the SEC or Big East) where there are no athletic scholarships and academics are supposed to be the focus. Furthermore, Joe coached at Princeton for a number of years, played and captained the team at Princeton, and gave up a lot economically to come to Princeton. I think Princeton has reciprocated his commitment so I doubt he's going anywhere any time soon
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 04:25 AM - Post#4027
In response to T71
Oh zing, wow, you got me.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32803
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 12:16 PM - Post#4028
In response to T71
T '71---What's your support for your statement that Scott "gave up a lot economically" to return to Princeton? While Princeton certainly is not a Big 10 coaching job, neither is Air Force. Princeton can afford to, and I would assume, did outbid Air Force for its basketball coach, just as Penn did what it had to do to keep Dunphy. While I doubt Scott returned for any bonanza, I always assumed that he received as much or more than he was getting at Air Force.
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Administrator
Junior
Posts: 241
Reg: 11-08-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 03:50 PM - Post#4029
In response to Jeff2sf
Guys, this is childish.
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Phil
Freshman
Posts: 75
Loc: Princeton
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-13-05 06:42 PM - Post#4030
In response to Red n Blue
You have to look at what Joe did at Air Force with respect to where they had been, 6/20 the year before he got there.
Sequence: 6/20, 8/21, 9/19, 12/16, 22/6
I think that shows what can be done with a few years of recruiting! That record in one of the top 10 ranked conferences by RPI over that period.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-17-05 12:57 PM - Post#4031
In response to Phil
Even with Thompson at the helm, PU was a marginal team. Yes, they won their games, but rarely in convincing fashion. This year they were forced to transition to Scott and play without their best bench player (and probably one of their best two athletes), Schaen. Hence, we shouldn’t be surprised that they lost some games.
Were I a PU fan, which I am not, I would be more concerned by the inability to control games at the end. Scott simply hasn’t managed his players well. The traditional PU offense requires excellent shooters. It isn’t complicated. You stall for 35 seconds and either get a backdoor opportunity or shoot the 3. The problem is that PU doesn’t have good 3-point shooters. Thompson recognized that fact and adjusted the offense to compensate. He got the most out of the players that he had.
I don’t think that PU will fire Scott, nor do I believe that they should. Scott will get his shooters and the PU stall offense will once again make them competitive. Regardless, I think that Scott is one-dimensional when compared with Thompson.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-17-05 01:43 PM - Post#4032
In response to Condor
With Thompson, they were 13-1 with essentially the same team. Schaen was an important role player off the bench but at most he affected the outcome of two games last year. If he were here this year, where would he be playing? On the perimeter shooting threes? The role he played last year as primarily an interior defender and rebounder does not exist this year.
Princeton is shooting the ball very well. That is not the problem. They lost games because they turned the ball over against pressure or trapping defenses, they got clobbered on the boards, they committed a lot of fouls, and/or opponents got them to switch into mismatches. None of the collapses have much at all to do with failure to run the offense or shoot the ball.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6404
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Stood on the edge, Tied to the noose
02-17-05 03:03 PM - Post#4033
In response to Brian Martin
To back your point, going into last weekend, Princeton led the league in both 3 pt shooting percentage and average 3s per game.
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