05Brunonia
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 01-02-05
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02-13-05 03:41 AM - Post#4074
Caught the second half of the game tonight at the Pitz - Some thoughts:
Tonight's game was not a good effort by our team. We couldn't get any sort of offensive system going and we made a lot of silly mental mistakes. We were unable to score field goals for the first ten minutes or so of the second half. I didn't feel any enthusiasm from Brown tonight - not a good way to head into Penn/Princeton weekend.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1422
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Whoa! We stink!
02-13-05 02:47 PM - Post#4075
In response to 05Brunonia
I never thought I'd be saying that after playing Harvard & Dartmouth at home. Not even this season. I missed this game on YES, and I'm glad I did!
Listen, as we've said before, a team with this much youth is going to struggle some - especially against teams that are so much older. I'm happy to chalk some of this up to growing pains. Really -- if these games help Miller fix something fundamental with the way the young players are running the offense, then it's going to be worth the investment.
But not all of it. And three shooting performances in a row like we've had in the last three is very troubling. Like it or not, it does start with Forte and Ruscoe, who have both been pretty poor the last three games (Forte's GW jumper at CU, notwithstanding). I know Luke had some stomach bug on Saturday, but he hasn't been on his game since the Princeton game. And the way Jason's been shooting lately, it's making me wonder if he's been playing hurt. The big guys have GOT to have solid games - and if either one of them had vs Dartmouth, Brown would have won. Take nothing away from Dartmouth in getting a really good road win, but I don't think they're very good, and if there's one team in the league Brown should smoke at home, it is Dartmouth.
Instead, it was left to little-used James Daniels to bring Brown back - the only player to go on any semblance of a hot streak in the game - and according to the ProJo, it actually gave Brown a chance to win this game late. Similar story vs. Harvard - if we hit shots, we're in that game too. I think Daniels has earned himself some more PT with this performance, by the way. (Man, I love how that kid plays.)
The offense, for the first time in Miller's reign, needs fixing. And Jason and Luke do need to start hitting some shots again.
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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05Brunonia
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 01-02-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-13-05 03:45 PM - Post#4076
In response to Bruno
I agree. This team needs Forte and Ruscoe to produce, and last night, they were just off.
Also, for most of the second half, Miller played a lot of the guys who would't normally get PT. It seemed as if he was trying to send a message to his team, to get them fired up.
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Omac
newbie
Posts: 2
Loc: New York, NY
Reg: 01-05-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-13-05 04:45 PM - Post#4077
In response to 05Brunonia
I caught this game on YES. One of the worst performances I've ever seen, by any team, at any level. Brown did not have a field goal in the 2nd half until about 5 minutes to go. I'm not sure Miller was trying to send any messages. I think he was trying to find someone to put the ball in the basket.
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brownbruin
Freshman
Posts: 50
Loc: Connecticut
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-13-05 06:02 PM - Post#4078
In response to Omac
I caught the first 6-7 minutes on YES. Aside from the obvious atrocious shooting that has continued to plague us over the last several games, it was very disappointing to see such a sparse crowd. Admittedly, it was not a game with anything on the line (particularly after Friday's loss to H), but it looked like there weren't more than 500 people there. I didn't hear the band (was the band there?). I don't know if the problem is apathy at the student level, a fundamental lack of school spirit, the lousy and meager sports coverage in the BDH, the very liberal leaning of the students or something else. But, it has to be demoralizing for the players to see such ridiculously weak support from the students and the Providence area. Brunonia05, do you have any thoughts, being a current student?
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05Brunonia
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 01-02-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-13-05 07:28 PM - Post#4079
In response to brownbruin
The lack of student support for Brown teams probably deserves a thread unto itself, but here goes:
I think there are many reasons as to why Brown students fail to show support for the sports teams. Partly, it is the liberal leanings of the student body. There is a lack of school spirit that is the result of an anticompetitive attitude stemming from this liberalsim.
The students seem to have an elitist attitude towards athletes and care more about artistic pursuits. Many students (not I) think they are intellectually inferior and lower the grade of the university. I don't mean to stereotype, but the same type of student always seems to have an individualistic mindset that is not conducive to team sports. They'd rather pursue their own interests than cheer for something everyone can be a part of. The weekends are filled with more attractive alternatives of theater, musical performances, and acapella. [Quite sad, as I have always believed that art and sport beautifully supplement education.]
Further, Brown draws heavily from the northeast, where the tradition of state universities with great football and basketball programs does not exist. If you never went to watch ACC basketball with your family, would you go to watch Ivy basketball with your friends?
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05Brunonia
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 01-02-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-13-05 07:34 PM - Post#4080
In response to 05Brunonia
The attendance of last night's game is listed at 1411, but the band was not in attendance. I just hope not too many people watched the game...
BDH does give some coverage, but they seem to be making a political statement at times. Even though Ivy games are usually held on the weekend, it appears that women's sports receive coverage earlier in the week. This is of course just an observation of my own.
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brownbruin
Freshman
Posts: 50
Loc: Connecticut
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 12:03 AM - Post#4081
In response to 05Brunonia
It's absolutely incredible that the Brown band wasn't at the game; a TV game no less. It's downright embarassing. It's a mind-boggling demonstration of student or institutional apathy that's unhealthy for the university. I agree with you 05Brunonia, this topic is worthy of its own thread. When I get a minute, I'll start one. I'm curious to hear the views of other Brown fans/students on the board. I find myself more upset at the apathy than with the atrocious two losses over the weekend.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1422
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 01:02 AM - Post#4082
In response to brownbruin
I hear you, and I agree. If we're on YES, there shouldn't be many seats empty. Ridiculous. And it's not as if the Pitz seats 6,000 - it's 2,800. Sheesh.
My recollection from student reaction to Brown athletics was certainly apathy, but other than a vocal minority not derogatory towards the athletes. Still, compare that to places like the P's, and it's two different worlds. Makes it hard to recruit some of the higher end players too.
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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DCAJedi
Masters Student
Posts: 582
Age: 40
Loc: Somewhere.
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 01:19 AM - Post#4083
In response to Bruno
Was there a hockey game going on at the same time? From what I know about Brown the hockey team draws very, very well student-wise.
| "Here will be an old abusing of God's patience, and the king's English." |
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brownbruin
Freshman
Posts: 50
Loc: Connecticut
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 01:28 AM - Post#4084
In response to Bruno
I think the apathy is a more serious problem than an extremely liberal university like Brown's would like to admit. The most pronounced effect, IMO, is on fundraising. The inability of Brown to inspire strong feelings of loyalty, student support of athletic teams, and a sense of tradition, etc. plays out most significantly in the University historical difficulties in the fundraising arena (Sidney Frank excepted). I believe that it explains, at least in part, why a Brown alum's average annual contribution to the Annual Fund is the lowest in the league, why Brown's Annual Fund raises the least funds in the league and, ultimately why its endowment is the lowest in the league. Moreover, if one were to survey the 8 student on-line newspapers in the league, I defy any fair-minded, objective observer to conclude that, not only is the BDH's sports coverage the weakest (by far) of any of the 8, the BDH's coverage of university news, its expression of editorial opinion, its coverage of local events impacting the university and its profiles of high profile student/athletes is BY FAR, the least impressive BY FAR of the 8 on-line papers. Again, another indicator of student apathy. The fact that 05Brunonia says that students regard theater, musical performances and acappella (wow!!) as "more attractive alternatives" than intcollegiate athletics says a lot of the type of student that Brown attracts. I do not mean to demean any of the artistic events cited by 05Brunonia; but, support for athletics teams breeds strong alumni loyalty (look at Princeton, Dartmouth, Penn, Duke, Stanford, etc.) and helps a university knit together a strong sense of connectedness, alumni support and tradition in a way that, I believe, few other undergraduate activities do. I'm sure I'll take heat on this one, but I believe that the apparent low regard in which Brown students hold intercollegiate sports ultimately play out in less inspired, energized, loyal and devoted alumni. And that costs Brown dollars, and significant dollars, every day of the week. I feel bad for the guys on the team that they have to look at so many empty seats and know that their own school band failed to support them AT HOME. It's disgraceful. Concerned students and alumni should take note and be heard on this.
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05Brunonia
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 01-02-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 01:50 AM - Post#4085
In response to DCAJedi
Men's hockey was away at RPI. Women were at home.
The men draw very good crowds. I think it's because they can compete at a national level. (Although there are only 6 D-I college hockey conferences).
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 01:51 AM - Post#4086
In response to brownbruin
Quote:
It's absolutely incredible that the Brown band wasn't at the game; a TV game no less. It's downright embarassing..
The Brown band generally goes to one basketball game a year (the Penn game- merely because the Pennband is there), otherwise the band goes to Hockey games. That's not, as far as I know, an intentional slur against the basketball team, and I actually prefer that they remain loyal to the hockey team than be fairweather supporters of the basketball team. They are far from being the only band that does this- last weekend Harvard's band played at the hockey game while the PennBand played at the basketball game.
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05Brunonia
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 01-02-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 01:53 AM - Post#4087
In response to Bruno
OK, I didn't mean derogatory nor should I have made it sound as if it were hostile. The things is, people here are interested in many things. Sports are not always their top priority.
I think part of the reason is we are seeing things on a single axis. Can't we promote sports to a higher level at Brown without using it's commitment to other extra curriculars? I don't see a zero-sum game.
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boco357
Freshman
Posts: 11
Reg: 01-28-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 01:10 PM - Post#4088
In response to 05Brunonia
At the game on Fri/Sat.
Sat Glen should have taken Luke out. He was throwing up on the sidelines and looked to have the flu. I know there aren't many replacements for him, but he was a liability out there.
As far as the fans go, I am a fan an non-Brown student. I think there is a market for non student fans out there. Good Basketball, price, atmosphere. But more people just need to go check it out and the advertising is mediocre at best.
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BrownAlum
Freshman
Posts: 73
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 02:34 PM - Post#4089
In response to brownbruin
I have more to say on the topic of the apathy of Brown students which I will save for later. Right now I just want to correct one thing about the Brown Annual Fund. Last year Brown raised the third most unrestricted dollars in the league and, the Annual Fund has shown a double digit percentage increase every year for the past 5 years. We still need to improve our alumni participation rate but we are doing quite well in terms of Annual Fund dollars.
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Anonymous
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 02:44 PM - Post#4090
In response to BrownAlum
The Band was at the Women's Hockey game on Fri. and I assume on Sat. Brown students are front runners, with the exception of the varsity athletes who support the other Brown teams, students only turn out to support winning teams. The Band has always followed the Hockey team and has not clue about what to do at a basketball game; better they should stay away.
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The Willow
Masters Student
Posts: 402
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 03:36 PM - Post#4091
In response to
Quote:
The Band has always followed the Hockey team and has not clue about what to do at a basketball game; better they should stay away.
Exactly.
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brownbruin
Freshman
Posts: 50
Loc: Connecticut
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 04:39 PM - Post#4092
In response to BrownAlum
BrownAlum - my point is that dollars are dollars, whether restricted or unrestricted. On a dollars raised basis, whether restricted or unrestricted, I'm pretty sure we're dead last. And the percentage of alumni contributing, as well as average annual alum contribution, if not dead last, are not "many games" out of last place. I'd be curious to know your source, if you would let me know. I'm very pro-Brown and very supportive of the University financially. But student and alumni apathy are anathema to the mission of the University. Thanks.
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05Brunonia
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 01-02-05
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-14-05 07:05 PM - Post#4093
In response to brownbruin
This is just hearsay, but I once heard that a higher percentage of Brown parents (as opposed to alums) give to the school.
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BrownAlum
Freshman
Posts: 73
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 12:04 AM - Post#4094
In response to 05Brunonia
That stat about the parents is not true. However, Brown does raise more money from non-alumni parents than any other Ivy and is second most in the country.
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columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 03:33 PM - Post#4095
In response to 05Brunonia
Could apathy also be attributable to the fact that Penn's runaway with the league has eliminated any chance of Brown Basketball competing for the NCAA tournament bid?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 03:46 PM - Post#4096
In response to columbia92
It wasn't a runaway when the weekend started---the Brown student paper as well as Projo both were highly optimistic that with all 7 home games remaining, Brown was right in the race. Penn's 2 game lead when the weekend started had nothing to do with lousy attendance at these games.
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Anonymous
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 04:17 PM - Post#4097
In response to palestra38
Actually the Friday crowd was pretty good, quiite full though not a sell out. Sat. attendance was much less. Penn and Princeton usually draw pretty well, even in the pre-Miller years.
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Anonymous
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 04:30 PM - Post#4098
In response to columbia92
Hey C92....
Isn't it refreshing to be on a board (the Brown board) whose team's most supportive fans look inward to assess problems/solutions (with the school, the student body, etc) rather than cast blame on everyone outside of their program without taking personal responsibility?
Try it sometime.
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columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 04:47 PM - Post#4099
In response to
Columbia is playing to 71% capacity in the league this year. Penn is at 59%. Brown and Yale are in the Mid-50s. Cornell, the 2nd place team, is at 34%.
My argument has never been about Columbia. I'm suggesting the league-wide malaise can be attributable to the fact that there is nothing of interest for non-diehards at these games.
For reference:
(league games only)
LEAGUE 75608 57%
HAR 4782 73%
COL 9922 71%
DAR 4417 70%
PRI 17023 62%
PEN 25598 59%
BRO 2998 54%
YAL 3194 52%
COR 7674 34%
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 05:27 PM - Post#4100
In response to columbia92
So Penn is averaging 5500 per Ivy home game and Columbia is averaging just over 2000 and you are trumpeting that CU is at 71% of capacity? Sigh.
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columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 05:49 PM - Post#4101
In response to palestra38
Not trumpeting anything. My point is not about Columbia vs Penn. Never has been. Never will be.
It's about the six schools which don't care about basketball versus the two that do. Just because I have Columbia in my moniker does not make me as partisan as many of those who wear redandblue colored glasses.
If we are to understand how to improve the league as an entity, perhaps we should drop our self-serving interests for a second.
The way the schedule works out, Brown and Yale are almost eliminated before they have even played a majority of their league home games. This will not increase interest on campus, even if one of the two turns it around and finishes 9-5 and in 2nd place.
Why is this such a foreign concept for many to understand. People don't go to sporting events for the aesthetics of competition. They go to cheer, to be part of a community. What's the point of cheering if there's no payoff?
Understanding this is what has made professional and collegiate sports tremendous earners. Our league despises the notion that people want to be active spectators.
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Anonymous
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 06:05 PM - Post#4102
In response to columbia92
Well, when your school is in the city that probably has the most alumns of other Ivy schools, you'll "draw" well because of the opponents. I can't imagine that Columbia has ever really had a "home-court" advantage in Ivy play.
But I guess by making that argument I fall into the C92 trap of blaming factors outside of the school's "control" for any negatives related to the program.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 06:07 PM - Post#4103
In response to columbia92
But you're wrong...as I pointed out earlier, Brown had not been eliminated before last weekend. Moreover, it is typical that several teams will play 5 of the first 7 on the road---Penn did last year.
Competitiveness has little or nothing to do with the schedule, since it evens out over the years. Competitiveness has everything to do with the committment given to the sport by the schools' administration. Committment is evidenced by a number of factors, from facilities, the willingness of admissions to work with athletics, the willingness to spend money to hire the right coaches, and the willingness to promote the product and the school. Unfortunately, most of the Ivies would rather choke than promote their athletic programs. Until recently, CU fell within that category---it seems to be changing, but the verdict is still out. If Brown promoted its product in a town like Providence, I think it could be very successful. Only Dartmouth has built in disadvantages that seemingly preclude it from making the kind of committment that could lead to a winner (small school size, far from population center, not exactly a basketball hotbed). The other Ivies choose to be bad....because they refuse to make a committment to being successful. Contrary to your repeated assertions, neither scheduling nor the lack of a playoff is a significant factor in the lack of success of the non-P's.
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columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 06:10 PM - Post#4104
In response to
Quote:
Well, when your school is in the city that probably has the most alumns of other Ivy schools, you'll "draw" well because of the opponents. I can't imagine that Columbia has ever really had a "home-court" advantage in Ivy play.
I guess you didn't see the Yale game on YES.
Columbia's students have responded to this team. The alumni will come along slowly.
But once again, for the reading-comprehension challenged...
It's not about Columbia. It's about the six schools that don't care, versus the two that do. How do we (as league partners) keep Brown/Harvard/Dartmouth/Cornell fans from abandoning basketball for hockey? How do we get Yale fans to care in an off-year?
Leave Columbia out of the discussion for a moment.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 06:13 PM - Post#4105
In response to columbia92
Quote:
Not trumpeting anything. My point is not about Columbia vs Penn. Never has been. Never will be.
It's about the six schools which don't care about basketball versus the two that do. Just because I have Columbia in my moniker does not make me as partisan as many of those who wear redandblue colored glasses.
If we are to understand how to improve the league as an entity, perhaps we should drop our self-serving interests for a second.
The way the schedule works out, Brown and Yale are almost eliminated before they have even played a majority of their league home games. This will not increase interest on campus, even if one of the two turns it around and finishes 9-5 and in 2nd place.
Why is this such a foreign concept for many to understand. People don't go to sporting events for the aesthetics of competition. They go to cheer, to be part of a community. What's the point of cheering if there's no payoff?
Understanding this is what has made professional and collegiate sports tremendous earners. Our league despises the notion that people want to be active spectators.
You've ignored the point in the post you're responding to.
Despite your rhetorical sleight-of-hand about the "majority of their league home games," Brown certainly wasn't "almost eliminated" before last weekend. They were given the gift of starting their Ivy home schedule with what should have been their two easiest games at Pizzitola. Win both and they're right in the thick of the race.
If anyone "despises the notion that people want to be active spectators," it's the Brown basketball team, which effectively killed fan interest by (for example) missing their first 18 shots in the second half against Dartmouth.
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columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
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Not talking about competitiveness or success
02-15-05 06:19 PM - Post#4106
In response to palestra38
I'm talking about marketing. I'm talking about building community around the basketball programs. Building interest among groups of 18-22 year olds. Why does Starbucks succeed where Chock Full o Nuts failed?
It understood the marketplace.
Our league does not understand the marketplace. Winning is not the only draw for sports teams. Excitement, drama, tension, us vs them... this is what sells tickets. When the "us vs them" component is for 2nd place, it loses lustre.
The league is set up in a fashion that ignores the economic realities of today's college sports consumer. It only suits the old-timers and die-hards. Even Penn doesn't draw as well as it used to...
Why do we want our ivory tower to exist in this public sphere which should be a way to bridge the gaps between town and gown?
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Anonymous
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 07:15 PM - Post#4107
In response to columbia92
I apologize to the Brown fans for taking up your board space here. C92 clearly has an agenda/axe to grind.
I think many of my esteemed colleagues have made the case for how these schools can improve much better than I can in this post, so I'll direct you to their many fine and well thought-out posts.
It seems like you'll keep crying wolf on this one until everyone clamors for a postseason tournament. Don't hold your breath.
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Anonymous
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 07:22 PM - Post#4108
In response to palestra38
Quote:
If Brown promoted its product in a town like Providence, I think it could be very successful.
P'38, I respectfully disagree. Providence is a relatively small town, PC gets the bulk of the ink and attention, and URI gets most of what's left. Brown tried playing some double headers in the "Dunk" with PC a few years ago and not much happened. I think Penn's larger undergraduate student body helps it's numbers. Brown does a little better in football, alumni come from farther away to attend, less local competition (no PC).
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 07:34 PM - Post#4109
In response to
Well, I guess we'll never know....Brown's opportunity to improve its program came when it sold Marvel and rather than build a first class facility, went the high school route. But Providence is not a small town (although I guess it is in comparison to NY and Philly) and Brown is not much different in size than PC. The key is its niche in the city and surrounding area---if Brown had an on-campus arena (say 5000 or so) with comfortable seats, it could seek to draw people from the area who don't want to pay the prices they charge for mediocre PC basketball at the Dunk. With the facility they have, there is no way anyone unaffiliated with the University is going to come to a game. It's also harder to compete with the P's for recruits. So I guess you have to be happy with the amazing job Miller has done under the circumstances. It won't be easy to keep him.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1422
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 08:07 PM - Post#4110
In response to palestra38
Again with the "you guys aren't big time enough to keep a good coach." He hasn't left yet, has he?
I'll disagree with you here too. You're placing the egg before the chicken (or is it the chicken before the egg?) when you say that all Brown needed to do was build a 5,000 person arena with cushy seats, and the community would flock. Please. This has nothing to do with the facility. Brown does have challenges marketing itself to Providence, and Brown does not have anywhere near the undergraduate population that Penn does. Urban Providence isn't very big, and Providence and URI do get most of the attention. (This was the first year that the ProJo's website actually included a "Brown" section under "Local Colleges" - until last year, it used to be just Providence and URI.)
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Whoa! We stink!
02-15-05 08:19 PM - Post#4111
In response to Bruno
I agree with most of what you say, but don't put words in my mouth---I said it won't be easy to keep him, not that you can't. You will have to pay real cash money to keep him, just as Penn has done with Dunphy and Princeton apparently did to get Scott.
Brown is significantly smaller than Penn, but the difference in attendance is primarily alumni and unaffiliated people. On the Penn sub-board, there has been much moaning and groaning about the lack of student attendance (nothing like some W's for that). In a town like Providence, I think a nice quality lower mid-level facility would attract the non-students. I just wonder how much more it would have been to build that instead of Pizziola....and whether there is a sincere interest by the Brown administration to compete for an NCAA bid every year(as opposed to Miller and his players, who certainly try their best)?
So don't get me wrong---I have great admiration for what Brown has done with its program since Miller came in, but I attribute that solely to Miller and not to the Brown administration...and I hope they do keep him.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Not talking about competitiveness or success
02-15-05 08:44 PM - Post#4112
In response to columbia92
I wholeheartedly agree that the league doesn't understand marketing. One look at how they've scheduled the YES games in football and basketball last year and this year indicates this.
But the only way to make games about playing for more than second place is to improve the teams. And I don't see any indication in other mid-major conferences that you improve the teams or attendance or fan interest by giving a 10-18 squad a chance to lose by 50 in the NCAAs, which is the only proposal you've put forward so far in the way of changes.
Brown has taken great strides forward in the last couple of years, and competed for the championship because of it, with rabid crowds turning out for games in '02 and '03 and '04. The fact that they're a very young and therefore uneven squad this season is what's affecting their ability to compete for the league title and (perhaps) crowd interest, not anything having to do with the schedule or the league's unwillingness to foster an "us vs. them" component. What, exactly, is your evidence that this is the league's intent?
Anyway, you don't need to be competing for first place to foster "us vs. them." Yale and Harvard sure have an intensity to their matchups in basketball that goes beyond the place in the standings. There's an obvious "us vs. them" rivalry within the Yale-Brown travel partnership, too, since Yale began challenging the Ps for supremacy in '02, and Brown joined in the next two years. Certainly some of the posts on these boards suggest there's a rivalry that could be milked further.
What time frame are you talking about when you say Penn doesn't draw as well as it used to? Last year vs this year? Posts here by semi-informed fans don't count. Do you have long-term figures to cite that indicate a trend which goes beyond single year fluctuations, which are likely tied to pre-season expectations rather than the marketing failures of Jeff Orleans and his staff?
You offer us cant about "old-timers and die-hards" and the "ivory tower" and "town and gown," and very little in the way of detailed, concrete criticisms of the league's marketing, along with suggestions for addressing any weaknesses you see. So please, enlighten us with specifics.
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columbia92
goober
Posts: 73
Loc: NYC
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Not talking about competitiveness or success
02-15-05 09:36 PM - Post#4113
In response to Chip Bayers
There have been no attempts, so far as I can see, to create interest in this league nationally, regionally, or locally. We understand why this is so. With the exception of Dartmouth, each team has a Big East competitor in its market. Even Penn can't compete with Villanova for local interest.
The problem is, we can't even get our students interested. Nobody wants to get them interested. We seem to say that it's alright for them to ignore the league, except when their archrivals come to town. The sports marketplace is very fragmented. There are many competing interests for the entertainment dollar and eyeball. When providing a product that offers little in terms of emotional payoff, it is substandard in the marketplace of ideas.
Right now, there is little or no reason for a student at six of the eight schools to be emotionally invested in their basketball team. Most teams are eliminated from any payoff by midseason. Whatever stretch run that exists, is usually between two or three teams at most.
It's a bad product. The players are less talented than they are in the ACC. The students are less interested than they are in the OVC. There's no excitement at any gym, there's little reason for coaches play for the present after half the season is over...
Maybe we should go D-III. At least we can retain our "purity."
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Anonymous
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Re: Not talking about competitiveness or success
02-16-05 07:21 PM - Post#4114
In response to Chip Bayers
Quote:
I wholeheartedly agree that the league doesn't understand marketing.
Brown has taken great strides forward in the last couple of years, and competed for the championship because of it, with rabid crowds turning out for games in '02 and '03 and '04. .
In this thread, there are two issues, woven togerter, that I have issues with. Certainly winning hepls fill some seats, but at Brown, at least, it's student attendance that's impacted. The "Rabid" crowds of '02,'03,'04 seasons were largely limited to the Penn & Princeton games, I don't believe there were any other full houses. Tee shirt and Towel give aways, and local Billboard, TV and Radio campaigns haven't produced a whole lot. Unlike PC and URI, Brown's alumni a widely scattered and don't have much Basketball history. Notwithstanding marketing efforts, a 5000 seat arena at Brown and, I suspect, at a few of the other Ivy's, would produce 3000 to 3500 empty seats. I prefer the atmosphere at the Pitz.
On the Miller issues raised earlier in this thread, I don't beleive his "retention" rates vary much from any of the last 5 or 6 Brown coaches, or, for that matter, from the league average. He may be ambitious (I suspect he is) and if we are unable to keep him at Brown forever, then I will take solice in the fact that he proven he could recruit and win at Brown, and that will allow Brown to attract other ambitious candidates for basketball as well as other coaching opportunities.
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