Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-09-08 03:08 PM - Post#46005
Pre-season, I predicted 11-3 or even 10-4 would win the title, if only .....
Congrats to Cornell, an undefeated leage record is no mean feat. But how 'bout our Bears? How many saw this coming? I'm an optimist, for sure, but, for the second time in Robinson's two year administration Brown significantly exceeded expectations. There were a few on these boards who agreed that the Bears were being underestimated (Howard Gensler and P38 come to mind), most had Brown in the second division. I hope they make the same mistake next year.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Expectations
03-09-08 08:58 PM - Post#46033
In response to Old Bear
Yeah, ol' P38 had some idea of what he was talking about when, in response to Pete Smith's prediction that Penn would win the Ivies with an 11-3 record, he said:
"I would be ecstatic with that result, but deem it unlikely. This is a season where it is hard to tell what Penn will be until we see them in November and December. On paper, Cornell and Yale have an early advantage. I think Brown is right there too. I see nothing to suggest that Columbia will all of a sudden start winning games they have lost for the last 2 years with the same cast."
Well, it was a decent prediction except for Yale. James Jones has some answering to do.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1420
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Expectations
03-09-08 10:03 PM - Post#46040
In response to Old Bear
Agreed Old Bear.
I won't say that on their merits, I thought Brown wouldn't get 11 wins. It's just that in my Brown fan experience, where we're not able to win enough of the games we should and any of the games we shouldn't, I feared we could end up 8-6.
As in 2003, I think the better team won the title.
And hopefully history will be repeated with a posteseason bid.
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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Pete Smith
Senior
Posts: 314
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Expectations
03-09-08 10:51 PM - Post#46051
In response to palestra38
P38,
Congrats on your encyclopediac memory. Guilty as charged!! I was way too optimistic.
But, allow me a few alibis. Okay, just ONE alibi - INJURY CITY. Smith, Cofield, Gaines, Kach, Votel, Bernardini at various times, Monckton with the season from hell with sickness and injuries, and Egee and Grandieri playing hurt all year.
Nevertheless, after seeing us play Cornell twice, I am confident we will handle them next year as we did the previous 18! For all the talk of bad play on Saturday nights, and we sure did stink on a couple of them (though I am not too critical of the effort at Harvard, where we just came up short on an unbelievable number of shots) we played out best game of the season on a Saturday night in Ithaca, in my opinion.
Finally, how about the unbelievable match-ups of comparable scores. We whip Yale twice - something that last year's championship team could not accoomplish - but get manhandled in Providence...and beaten at home by Brown as well. We just could not match up with them, to say the least, but played some other teams - Yale, in particular, and probably Cornell - better than they did.
Anyhow, a very interesting season and I hope the BEARS get post season game(s).
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-10-08 10:34 AM - Post#46098
In response to Pete Smith
Pete, I believe Cornell will be better next year with another year of experience, confidence, etc. and with Senior leadership. That doesn't mean I think they will go undefeated again, but they are in first place until someone convinces me, or them, otherwise.
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CUJacob
Senior
Posts: 353
Reg: 12-05-04
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Re: Expectations
03-10-08 12:35 PM - Post#46116
In response to Pete Smith
Nevertheless, after seeing us play Cornell twice, I am confident we will handle them next year as we did the previous 18! For all the talk of bad play on Saturday nights, and we sure did stink on a couple of them (though I am not too critical of the effort at Harvard, where we just came up short on an unbelievable number of shots) we played out best game of the season on a Saturday night in Ithaca, in my opinion.
By your own admission, you played your best game of the season against Cornell, still lost, and you say that not only will you beat Cornell next year but "handle" them?
Typical Penn arrogance. Penn has a long way to go to catch Cornell. Might they do it? Sure, but the guess here is that they will not.
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Pete Smith
Senior
Posts: 314
Reg: 11-24-04
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03-10-08 12:40 PM - Post#46119
In response to Old Bear
Old Bear,
What you or I or CUJacob or P38 or Howard Gensler or anyone else thinks about who will win the league next year doesn't make any difference. NO ONE is in first place until the games are played.
Cornell is the defending champion - period. Nothing more and nothing less.
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Pete Smith
Senior
Posts: 314
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Expectations
03-10-08 12:47 PM - Post#46125
In response to CUJacob
CU,
I stand by my belief that Penn will "Handle" Cornell next year - and with relative ease.
While it is true that Penn, in my opinion, played its best game of the season in Ithaca, I also think it is true that Cornell cannot play much better than they did the same game. Look at your shooting stats that night, for example. Are you going to be better than, what was it, 27 for 29 from the foul line.
Also, you won - that is the fact - 94-92 in Philadelphia in a game where the vast majority of the calls and 'no' calls went your way. In a well officiated game you would have lost. Call me arrogant, but our freshman and incoming class will kick your upperclassmen out of Alfred E Newman hall next year!!
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CUJacob
Senior
Posts: 353
Reg: 12-05-04
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Re: Expectations
03-10-08 01:06 PM - Post#46136
In response to Pete Smith
Call me arrogant, but our freshman and incoming class will kick your upperclassmen out of Alfred E Newman hall next year!!
If you switched the rosters, uniforms, recruiting classes and '07-'08 records, and a Cornell fan made this claim, said Cornell fan would receive the "BRF" treatment. I give you credit for going out on a limb, but I hope you realize this.
Edited by CUJacob on 03-10-08 01:06 PM. Reason for edit: typo
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-08 01:15 PM - Post#46139
In response to CUJacob
Not sure why this exchange is on the Brown board. How 'bout them Bears!
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-08 01:20 PM - Post#46141
In response to Howard Gensler
Agreed Howard!
For Bruno and Old Bear: any idea how the senior season has gone for next year's incoming recruits? Do you expect any of them to step right into the rotation?
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-10-08 05:19 PM - Post#46207
In response to Mike Porter
Mike, I understand that the two big guys, Kaluz and Hollingsworth both had very good seasons, but it's been my experience that it's what happens after they get to college that matters, particularly for bigs. Coleman missed the entire HS season but is an excellent talent who may be ready to play. I haven't heard much about Weaver, others may know more. Keep your ears open.
One of the encouraging thing about this year has been the contributions made by underclassmen. We got all we expected, and perhaps more, from McAndrew and Huffman. McDonald's contribution was severely limited by injuries. But, a lot of Brown's success was due to others taking up slack and prohibiting team's from concentrating on the Srs. snd penslizing them when the did. Skrelja proved himself, Sullivan scored consistantly and played great D. The immergence of Matt Mullary in the middle was huge, he might of led the league in blocks, and Friskie was named player of the game twice in the last two weeks when Matt went down. Adrian Williams showed he will contribute at both ends and Chris Taylor played increased minutes down the end. While I expect many to predict Brown to drop to the bottom half with the loss of McAndrew and Huffman, I'm not buying in. I think Brown will surprise, as it usually does.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-08 09:18 PM - Post#46240
In response to Old Bear
It is interesting that Dunphy got so much more credit from the Penn folk for last year's Penn champs than Miller gets from the Brown folks for last year's and this year's Bear "overachievers."
Assuming Huffman makes first team All-Ivy this year (McAndrew is a given) that would give Miller recruits 10 first-team all-Ivy nods during his time at Brown (Hunt 3x, Forte 3x, McAndrew 2X, Nu 1x and Huffman 1X). Throw in the four 2nd-teamers, a ROY and a POY and that's a pretty impressive recruiting run during his time in Providence (although we're expecting him to do better at Penn). And that number would have been even greater (and you might have gotten a title) if Jeppesen had stayed when Robinson came on board.
It's clear how fond you are of Sullivan and Williams may become a very good player but the two All-Ivy seniors, Skrelja and Friske are not only Miller guys, they're all guys who emerged under Miller - they're not guys who sat on the bench until Robinson recognized their talent. And Mullery, I believe, was also a Miller recruit.
Craig Robinson did a good job this year but he benefitted by a stacked group of upperclassman recruited by his predecessor.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Expectations
03-10-08 10:27 PM - Post#46247
In response to Howard Gensler
There was a big difference in the two teams.
Miller inherited a championship team.
Robinson inherited a losing team, though one with some potential.
Edited by Brian Martin on 03-10-08 10:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-08 10:55 PM - Post#46249
In response to Brian Martin
I'm not saying there's not a difference, merely that Robinson benefitted this year from a top of Miller's recruiting cycle that he seems to get no credit for. Put another way, Miller inherited a Dunphy cycle at its peak with only Grandieri behind it having all-Ivy potential and Robinson inherited a Miller cycle a year away from its peak with McAndrew and Huffman this year and Skrelja and Friske next year having all-Ivy potential.
Straight up, would Brown trade either Skrelja or Friske for any of Penn's juniors? What about for all of Penn's juniors?
Why not just acknowledge Miller left a pretty full cupboard. If you think Robinson did more with it than Miller would have, fine, you should support the coach you have over the one you don't, but Robinson wasn't starting from scratch and he still has the luxury next year of not having to rely too much on his underclassmen.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1420
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-08 11:20 PM - Post#46257
In response to Howard Gensler
Not sure I understand the point of this turn in the topic. (Oh wait, yes I do. Let's take some of the shine off of Brown's coach and put it back on Penn's.)
I actually agree that Miller left some good talent behind for Robinson to work with. (Don't forget Keenan was left over too.) That said, I do believe it was McAndrew who played a grand total of 10 minutes under Miller in his final year on a not-so-good team, only to emerge as a two time first teamer under Robinson.
But, I don't think many of us Brown fans were questioning Miller's recruitment abilities. Or coaching abilities. It was his "keeping four-year players from quitting" abilities. (Although, if I recall correctly, I believe Nu and Hunt were actually Happy Dobbs recruits.)
Robinson has done a nice job of recruiting, coaching, you name it. This freshman class is very, very good, and there are at least two future all-Ivy players in it. Williams and Sullivan played a significant role in setting the school record for wins. So, it's pretty hard to try to get Brown fans to think that the only guy to ever get them 19 wins isn't so good at this coaching and recruiting thing.
I do have some questions about the upcoming class, though. Coleman was a great signing, but losing his senior year to a knee injury - the year before he has to adjust to the college game - was a big blow to the class and his likely effectiveness, at least early on. I think Kaluz and Hollingsworth are up there with strong-but-not-outstandin g Ivy big man recruits, and that Weaver is more of an undersized power forward. In short, I don't know if any of those guys are anything more than solid role players - although I'll admit I don't know very much about them.
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-08 11:53 PM - Post#46259
In response to Bruno
You know, one can state a fact without there being an ulterior motive. I wasn't denigrating the job Robinson did and I wasn't trying to get the 2.5 people on this board who care about Brown to give Miller his props - it was more a theoretical question:
Miller wins with Dunphy's players and gets no credit but Robinson wins with Miller's players and it's all Robinson. Just seemed a little unfair to me.
As for your other points, since you're trying to take the shine off the Penn coach:
1) McAndrew played 10 minutes per game Miller's last year, not 10 minutes total, after averaging over 13 mins. per game as a freshman. So coming into his first season under Robinson last year, McAndrew had played more for Miller than any Penn active Penn player this season except Grandieri and Egee.
2) If you're going to give Robinson the credit for the development of Miller's recruits, don't you also have to give Miller the credit for the development of Hunt and Nu?
3) Which potential four-year star quit under Miller? No doubt a bunch of guys left the team but how many of them were real players - Hunt, Nu, Powers, Forte, Martin, Ruscoe, and all of this year's guys stuck it out. The only top-tier Brown player who quit was Jeppesen and he walked away post-Miller although he did seem willing to follow Miller.
4) As for this year's frosh class being very, very good, you may be right but we can only discuss that in the future.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-11-08 12:06 PM - Post#46288
In response to Howard Gensler
Howard is correct on all points. In fact, Nu was a Miller recruit (late). Miller deserves his props for a great recruiting and coaching job at Brown. Robinson deserves credit for helping the development of what he was left. Yes, Miller lost a few, G. J. King and Flaherty were starters, and their were others, but this is a fact of life in Ivy Athletics. Miller lost the prior teams' returning co-captains, but no one blame him. Certainly, recruiting production can only be acurately assessed after a number of years. Still, I'm confident Robinson will prove to at least as good as Miller, and that is saying alot.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1420
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-11-08 06:40 PM - Post#46319
In response to Old Bear
Howard is dead wrong. There are at least 3 regular posters on this Board. Not 2.5. 3.
Also, at the end of the day, I don't believe Howard makes too many points without ulterior motive. When 75% of the points made all seem to somehow devalue what other teams have done or are doing... I think at the end of the day, some Penn fans just can't sit still and let other fans feel good about what they've done - rare as that may be.
That said, I am not the trusting sort. So, maybe I'm wrong about that. I'd be less skeptical if there were more comments that - "fact"-based or not - were actually positive about what other teams have done.
And by the way, I seem to recall Penn folks riding Miller for losing all his talent when he was Brown's coach. But, no longer.
To be clear, once again, we loved Miller as our coach. I mean, I use to cringe sometimes at his behavior, but I didn't want to lose him. He gets full credit for the job he did at Brown. That said, I'm now glad he left, because that led us to Robinson. 19 wins and a challenging schedule with a grand total of one blowout (to Notre Dame). They were in every game they played in this season, including at Baylor. Sweep the Ps for the first time EVER. I mean... that's just not bad. At all.
But, we all know it's still too early to compare the two, and I never have before today. The bottom line is we'd all be happy with Robinson's performance if he reaches the same win number Miller did in his X years at Brown...
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-11-08 07:48 PM - Post#46321
In response to Bruno
I definitely rode Miller for running off players. I have a feeling it's coming very soon, because we have a lot of players, but we'll see. So far he made it through two years without losing anyone. Given a change in styles from Dunphy AND this lousy year, I think that's an accomplishment.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-12-08 12:20 AM - Post#46351
In response to Bruno
I'd be less skeptical if there were more comments that - "fact"-based or not - were actually positive about what other teams have done.
Brown had a great season this year and you should be very proud of them.
Howard is dead wrong.
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Bruno
PhD Student
Posts: 1420
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-12-08 03:51 PM - Post#46455
In response to Howard Gensler
Hooray! I feel great!!
| LET'S go BRU-no (duh. nuh. nuh-nuh-nuh) |
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