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 Page 4 of 11 « First<4567>» Last
Username Post: Loyola University?        (Topic#7333)
PFE_Hounds 
Freshman
Posts: 89

Reg: 01-12-07
03-12-08 05:54 PM - Post#46475    
    In response to PFE_Hounds

I also just noticed the comment about us having to come in with another team to keep the even number. Here's a couple names to throw out:

St. Bonaventure - now completely over their head in the A-10

The Mount - also a complete outpost for their conference, home and away with them every year would be intense.



 
MJF 
Sophomore
Posts: 109

Age: 50
Reg: 03-10-08
Loyola University?
03-12-08 06:38 PM - Post#46479    
    In response to PFE_Hounds

  • Quote:
- I agree completely with whoever said that the school wouldn't build a big new stadium without some kind of parallel commitment to the program itself. I'm not sure that this means football but it must mean a move to take the next step generally.




I just don't know what Loyola would do with a facility that big if they weren't thinking football at some point down the road. It's overkill for anything else.

It's 6,000 seats - Bigger than Georgetown's stadium and about the same size as Fordham's. (Football only members of the Patriot League) The artist's renderings make it look like an absolute showplace.

The naming rights for the grandstand alone were quoted at 5 million bucks.

I don't know if Men's Lax draws 6k a game. (Vs. Hopkins and/or Towson, perhaps?)

Men's Soccer, Women's Soccer, Field Hockey, and Women's Lax combined probably don't draw much more than 6k over a school year.

I donated (very little) toward the thing, and I still can't figure out what they are going to do with it, considering they can't get kids to walk to the dead center of campus for basketball games as it is. How are they going to get kids motivated to take a shuttle to the other side of I-83 for men's lax, let alone a soccer game?

I more or less think Loyola's planning on building it because they believe the money is there - they'll figure out what to do with it later.

On another issue, the MAAC kills enthusiasm. Marist coming to Evergreen? Meh. Army or Navy coming to Evergreen? That's something worth the effort.

The budding rivalry with Fairfield is kind of cool. Maybe they would make a good "Patriot Partner" for Loyola...



 
BUPilot 
Masters Student
Posts: 641
BUPilot
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
Loyola University?
03-13-08 01:27 PM - Post#46527    
    In response to MJF

Hi folks,

I thought I'd pop on over from the Bucknell board since Lou was kind enough to offer an invitation to comment on Loyola potentially joining the Patriot League. I have no special or inside knowledge regarding P.L. league expansion plans but I let me share some thoughts on the subject based upon past discussions among Bucknell and some fans of other Patriot League schools about league expansion (which the fans are certainly in favor of having occur).

First of all & without intending any offense whatsoever to Loyola, I think it's pretty unlikely that Loyola will be able to enter the Patriot League without having at least one if not more New England/New York based schools join at the same time. The reason - geographical balance and the plight of our conference friends at Holy Cross. Much as Loyola views itself as the southern outpost of the MAAC, Holy Cross is the Patriot League's northern most branch & has the toughest travel schedule for league play. There are already grumblings from time to time about the travel (and some would say attracting fan support) difficulties that Holy Cross faces in the P.L. as a result of this geography. Adding additional 'southern' schools without offsetting 'northern' ones could ultimately help lead to a decision by Holy Cross to leave the league if those difficulties were only perceived as increasing. And I think it's safe to say that the Patriot League would rather remain in its present form than add practically any southern school that might be a good fit (e.g. potentially Loyola, Richmond, W&M, etc.) at the cost of losing Holy Cross. Thus, the geographic issue likely needs to be dealt with even before you get to the question of whether Loyola standing alone would make a good addition to the Patriot League academically & athletically.

This raises the question then of who could be a good 'partner' to accompany Loyola into the Patriot League. I think a lot of P.L. fans would love to get Fordham back as an all sports member. It's academically comparable & has a great location in NYC for the league & is a reasonable trip from Holy Cross as well. Additionally, it could be a good athletic fit since the Rams haven't exactly been covering themselves in A-10 glory either in basketball or other sports. Unfortunately, any discussions along those lines run into Fordham alumni opposing what they see as a downgrade to the Patriot League - even if the P.L. really would be a much better fit for the school. Beyond that, I'm not really sure who the P.L. schools would view as both academically and athletically compatible institutions in the Northeast (and who would be looking to make a switch in affiliation). Some Patriot League fans have tossed around the names of Fairfield or Marist as potential additions, but neither school apparently has made a solid enough case for gaining membership to the Patriot League - assuming either would even be interested in switching conferences.

Anyway, I don't mean to rain on the rumor since I'm certainly in favor of growing the Patriot League. But I figured you should know what kinds of issues would likely figure prominently among the current P.L. members when considering future growth. And of course all of this assumes that the current members viewed Loyola (or any other aspirant) as a compatible fit in academics & athletics.
Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt?


Edited by BUPilot on 03-13-08 01:36 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Lou 
Masters Student
Posts: 406
Lou
Age: 112
Loc: Atlanta
Reg: 07-19-06
03-13-08 01:47 PM - Post#46529    
    In response to BUPilot

Thanks BUPilot. That is exactly the sort of insight I was hoping we would get.

Obviously this is more us gabbing than anything. If anything is happening my bet is it involves finding a more permanent home for our lax program and nothing more. It is worth noting though that our president is a long-time Holy Cross teacher/administrator and HC and LC have representatives on each other's board. I don't think Loyola's admin would be comfortable being the only Catholic school in a league, so I think if there was a chance to join the PL it would be with HC's blessing and support and not something that would potentially drive them away.

Fairfield and Loyola are both rivals on the court and very similar off, and have strong ties. Of all the MAAC schools I would love to bring them along but they are one of those programs living that fantasy that the A-10 secretly wants them but just has not realized it yet. Sort of Fordham's disease.

Curious... would Loyola adding non-scholarship football make us more attractive? Also, does the PL give scholarships/grants for non-rev sports?

One last thing worth mentioning: It is a great tribute to the PL and the work it has done that we are even having this conversation. My bet is a decade ago most Loyola fans would have considered joining the PL as giving up on athletics, now we are clamoring for it.
Jesus loves me.
I don't give a f--- what the rest of you think.


 
loco09 
Masters Student
Posts: 526
loco09
Reg: 02-08-07
03-13-08 02:28 PM - Post#46532    
    In response to Lou

I know this thread has a lot of what if's. but when i was bored i started looking around at the budgets and things like that. Loyola matches up pretty well with the basketball budgets, in 07 LC spent around 1.4 mil. on mens basketball while Holy Cross who had the highest in the PL spent around 1.6 mil. so its right in the same range. obviously some of the schools have larger overall athletic budgets due to the fact that they support football, baseball, softball, etc that LC does not have currently. If the ECAC folded for lax then i think the PL would be a much better fit than the MAAC where we would dominate every year, it could provide for some great matchups with Navy. Also looking at soccer it would probably be much more competitive, loyola has dominated MAAC soccer for years mens and womens so it would be a better fit. Looking at the larger picture it would be an upgrade in almost every sport.
As far as the new staduium foreshadowing football, i doubt it. The lax team does draw upwards of 5000 for several games a year ND, Syracuse, Hopkins. A year or so ago there was an article in the greyhound about adding a football team and while a non scholarship league would be the way to go i cant see it being economically feasible. In that article they talked about how expensive it was and if attendance was poor it could be a huge money trap and with Towson, Hopkins, and UMD, and the Ravens all being close by I cant see people spending their money to see a startup Loyola football team. They mentioned Fairfield's attempt at football a few years ago and how it lasted only a couple years and had to fold because it was losing money.
It's Not Worth Winning if You Can't Win Big


 
BUPilot 
Masters Student
Posts: 641
BUPilot
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
03-13-08 03:11 PM - Post#46534    
    In response to Lou

  • Lou Said:
Thanks BUPilot. That is exactly the sort of insight I was hoping we would get.

Obviously this is more us gabbing than anything. If anything is happening my bet is it involves finding a more permanent home for our lax program and nothing more. It is worth noting though that our president is a long-time Holy Cross teacher/administrator and HC and LC have representatives on each other's board. I don't think Loyola's admin would be comfortable being the only Catholic school in a league, so I think if there was a chance to join the PL it would be with HC's blessing and support and not something that would potentially drive them away.

Fairfield and Loyola are both rivals on the court and very similar off, and have strong ties. Of all the MAAC schools I would love to bring them along but they are one of those programs living that fantasy that the A-10 secretly wants them but just has not realized it yet. Sort of Fordham's disease.

Curious... would Loyola adding non-scholarship football make us more attractive? Also, does the PL give scholarships/grants for non-rev sports?

One last thing worth mentioning: It is a great tribute to the PL and the work it has done that we are even having this conversation. My bet is a decade ago most Loyola fans would have considered joining the PL as giving up on athletics, now we are clamoring for it.



Thanks for the compliments re: Patriot League improvement. While I don't know that it will ever get to be a consistent 2 bid league, I have great faith that the P.L. is on course for continuing improvement in basketball now that every member finally is offering scholarships.

I can't help but think that adding non-scholarship football would improve the appeal of a Loyola to the Patriot League. I suspect, however, that the league would want any 'football' member to be affiliated in most if not all sports since the league already has 2 football affiliates in Fordham & Georgetown. If a school came along with quality academics and competitive athletics, having a full member w/a football team could only be a good thing. But again, there would be the issue of finding a qualified geographically northern 'partner' to accompany Loyola or any other southern school into the league.

As an aside, there was a brief bit of gossip by at least one Lehigh blogger not too long ago that Marist was interested in joining the P.L. for football but it wasn't able to be worked out. _IF_ that was in fact the case (and I have no idea if the blogger's sources were accurate), I wouldn't be surprised if a big hang-up might have been Marist only wanting to join as a football affiliate instead of in all sports and the league not wanting a 3rd football only affiliate.

As to the question about scholarships/grants for non-revenue sports, it depends on the school & the sport. In addition to the service academies where everyone's on full scholarship (though with the post-graduate service requirement), Colgate, Lafayette, and American all give aid in selected sports. I know that Colgate offers aid in swimming but I'm not sure what the other individual sports are that aid is offered by each of those 3 schools. There's also scuttlebutt rumors that Holy Cross may join them in offering aid in selected but yet to be known sports. I suspect that eventually most of the P.L. schools will end up offering some type of merit aid/grants in selected non-revenue sports.
Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt?


 
BUPilot 
Masters Student
Posts: 641
BUPilot
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 02-11-06
03-13-08 03:15 PM - Post#46535    
    In response to loco09

  • loco09 Said:
I know this thread has a lot of what if's. but when i was bored i started looking around at the budgets and things like that. Loyola matches up pretty well with the basketball budgets, in 07 LC spent around 1.4 mil. on mens basketball while Holy Cross who had the highest in the PL spent around 1.6 mil. so its right in the same range. obviously some of the schools have larger overall athletic budgets due to the fact that they support football, baseball, softball, etc that LC does not have currently.



Just an FYI - while the publicly released budgets are interesting, they shouldn't be taken too seriously in comparing schools beyond determining whether they're at least in the same expenditures ballpark. That's because there's no uniform rules on how certain expenses must be allocated/charged within an athletic department or to a specific sport. Beyond seeing whether 2 schools are roughly comparable in terms of support, I wouldn't try to rely on them to 'prove' that one school is spending "X" amount more on basketball or some other sport than another school.
Will Atlas shrug? Who is John Galt?


 
loco09 
Masters Student
Posts: 526
loco09
Reg: 02-08-07
Loyola University?
03-13-08 03:29 PM - Post#46539    
    In response to BUPilot

I know, mainly I was just looking to see if as u said were in the same ballpark. I wanted to see if there was a big gap in spending between MAAC schools and the PL that would possibly be a roadblock in moving to a new league.
It's Not Worth Winning if You Can't Win Big


Edited by loco09 on 03-13-08 03:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
MJF 
Sophomore
Posts: 109

Age: 50
Reg: 03-10-08
03-13-08 03:36 PM - Post#46540    
    In response to loco09

  • Quote:
As far as the new staduium foreshadowing football, i doubt it. The lax team does draw upwards of 5000 for several games a year ND, Syracuse, Hopkins. A year or so ago there was an article in the greyhound about adding a football team and while a non scholarship league would be the way to go i cant see it being economically feasible.



I know from following Georgetown how tough it is to get a Patriot League football team off the ground. G-town went from Division III, to the MAAC, to the Patriot League in less than ten years.

Since joining the Patriot, however, it's been a major struggle for the Hoyas both on the field and at the gate.

Georgetown football is also crippled by the students' perception that 1) Georgetown doesn't have a team or 2) Georgetown has a team but they suck, so there's no point in going to a game. I could easily see a Loyola football program struggling with these same issues. And that's with the stadium in the middle of campus, not a mile away by bus.

As you also pointed out, even non-scholarship football is insanely expensive. The insurance bill alone would make your head spin.

On the other hand, without football, Loyola will have a 6,000 seat stadium that is necessary only four or five days a year. That hardly sounds like a good return on investment.

The stadium project seems like an answer to a problem that doesn't really exist.

Loyola will build the stadium because they can, and figure out how to use it later. My concern is that with the location and the general apathy of the student body toward athletics, the stadium will be underutilized. Out of sight, out of mind...

 
MacDog 
Masters Student
Posts: 437

Reg: 07-21-06
03-13-08 03:37 PM - Post#46541    
    In response to MJF

they'll use it for soccer

also expect it to be used majorly for rentals, especially for local big HS football, soccer, and lax games. it will return its own investments just on rentals within 10 years.

 
MJF 
Sophomore
Posts: 109

Age: 50
Reg: 03-10-08
03-13-08 03:44 PM - Post#46543    
    In response to MacDog

MacDog, since when does Soccer need a 6,000 seat stadium? I recall crowds for Soccer being closer to 600 fans than 6,000.

Also, I can't see a Loyola stadium doing well in the rental market when big HS games are already going to Ravens Stadium.

If you were organizing the Loyola/Calvert Hall game, would you give up playing it in an NFL stadium?


 
MacDog 
Masters Student
Posts: 437

Reg: 07-21-06
03-13-08 03:54 PM - Post#46544    
    In response to MJF

missing the vision

once they have a stadium, there is no longer a need for diane geppi aikens field. they will be able to build on it - extending the studnet center and i believe creating more academic space.

with the stadium, that space will now get games like the miaa lacrosse finals, which were being played on hopkins field. also, expect otehr games to get play there - maybe not loyola / chc but therre are other big matchups like state semifinals, big city games (city/poly) etc.

i'm sure it will be used - you don't build a building like that without using it.

 
MJF 
Sophomore
Posts: 109

Age: 50
Reg: 03-10-08
03-13-08 04:10 PM - Post#46546    
    In response to MacDog

I get that they want to use Geppi-Aikens for another academic quad. But to build a facility like that without the appropriate "anchors" is a recipe for disaster. It's like building a major mall without department stores...

Soccer is not an anchor sport, warranting a multi-million dollar stadium. No offense, but it just isn't. Seriously, does the level of support for any sport at Loyola (including Men's lax) warrant that kind of investment?

And then to stake the sucess of the venue on finding day-rentals makes it a really risky proposition. Particularly where you are competing with any number of facilities across the area.

I'd be thrilled if they built it, because I like it when Loyola has nice things, but the strategy doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

 
LIHFunited 
Freshman
Posts: 72

Reg: 11-15-06
03-13-08 04:17 PM - Post#46547    
    In response to MacDog

Gosh. While I completely understand the financial aspect of all of this time, losing Geppi-Aikens is going to absolutely destroy outdoor intramural and club sports. Where are these kids going to play?

I still don't understand the need for a 6,000 seat stadium and I haven't since I learned of the project my freshman year. However, Macdog is most likely right in that we will make money on rentals in 10-15 years time. I don't know what games are being played at Ravens Stadium, but I'm sure there are some local HS/college games that will utilize the fields.

 
MJF 
Sophomore
Posts: 109

Age: 50
Reg: 03-10-08
03-13-08 04:23 PM - Post#46549    
    In response to LIHFunited

Presumably the FAC would pick up the slack on club sports, but I don't know how that would work because I've never set foot in the place. Way after our time. I hear it's really nice, though.

Ravens Stadium has Loyola/Calvert Hall football on Thanksgiving, and some of the state football championships. Byrd Stadium has the rest.





 
IslandHound 
Freshman
Posts: 9

Age: 38
Reg: 01-25-08
03-13-08 04:37 PM - Post#46550    
    In response to MJF

MJF is correct intramurals for soccer and those sports would move to the field out back of the FAC....i am not sure however if it is big enough for baseball but i highly doubt it. I also know from personal experience that drainage and holes was a problem for that field but i believe that was being taken care of this school year or next year.

I am not sure what LC has in store for this new building but i would hope that before they built it they had an idea as to how they could atleast break even and make some sort of money....whether it be a football team or rentals. I would like to have enough faith in my alma mater that they would be intelligent enough to do that.

 
LoCo2011 
Senior
Posts: 399

Age: 35
Reg: 01-05-08
03-13-08 04:44 PM - Post#46551    
    In response to MJF

the fac is awful for outdoor sports though.. the one field they have is usually muddy and is completely uneven... so i dont see that as a solution to the intramural and club sports unless they made an improvement upon that.... also the space in front of the fac is slanted and on a hill with a decent amount of trees, so if they were to get rid of dga.. they would have to remodel the fac too if they planned to keep space for club/ intramural sports

 
MJF 
Sophomore
Posts: 109

Age: 50
Reg: 03-10-08
03-13-08 04:54 PM - Post#46552    
    In response to LoCo2011

Evidently, there would be a bunch of fields around the new stadium, but again, you'd have drive or take a bus to your flag football game or whatever.

 
Lou 
Masters Student
Posts: 406
Lou
Age: 112
Loc: Atlanta
Reg: 07-19-06
Loyola University?
03-13-08 04:57 PM - Post#46553    
    In response to MJF

  • MJF Said:
I get that they want to use Geppi-Aikens for another academic quad. But to build a facility like that without the appropriate "anchors" is a recipe for disaster. It's like building a major mall without department stores...

Soccer is not an anchor sport, warranting a multi-million dollar stadium. No offense, but it just isn't. Seriously, does the level of support for any sport at Loyola (including Men's lax) warrant that kind of investment?



I think you are way overthinking it. Everything you say is true of a mall or any other for-profit business, but not nearly as important to the College. They are not building this field as a revenue-generator, and are not going to need income from the field to pay for it. You already mentioned where the money is coming from... YOU!

Truth is from Loyola's perspective land > money. They are willing to spend money to gain main-campus land. The fact that the field was due replacement and outdoor sports have complained that the lack of a real stadium hurts recruiting is just a bonus.

I think MacDog is correct that they will look for more uses of the facility, and it would not surprise me if they find some (conference tournaments in lax and soccer, for example, or non-Ravens Stadium sized HS sports events). Perhaps CND will be playing some of their outdoor sports there too. But extra revenue is secondary, compared to gaining access to the field land for new buildings, and to some extent having a real stadium.
Jesus loves me.
I don't give a f--- what the rest of you think.


 
MJF 
Sophomore
Posts: 109

Age: 50
Reg: 03-10-08
Re: Loyola University?
03-13-08 05:46 PM - Post#46554    
    In response to Lou

I'm concerned with the "white elephant" factor where you spend all this money to build something that is way off campus (much farther than Boumi Temple) that will inevitably end up being underused in terms of both "actual use" and attendance.

I understand that in this setting the stadium doesn't have to profitable the way, say, Nationals Park, has to be. But it also can't be building for the sake of building, either. (Which is a criticism I have of the school in general, anyway. If it were up to me, Maryland Hall would still have pea green tile, but what do I know?)

Think about it, we're seriously talking about building a multi-million dollar stadium to clear space for multiple multi-million dollar academic buildings. (Of course, if the economy goes south, all bets are off.)

I guess it comes back to the inital question of whether it is going to be "Loyola College" or "Loyola University..."

 
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