Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-28-04 01:16 PM - Post#332
Before you send any flames, remember I do this primarily to hear why you think I am wrong. If anyone is interested, your dessent is encouraged. Just make your case.
5:
1) Cusworth - H
2) Danley - UP
3) Gardner - DC
4:
1) Zoller - UP
2) Preston - Col
3) Stehle - H
3:
1) Begley - UP
2) Collins - Cor
3) Tie - the rest
2:
1) Venable - PU
2) Draughan - Y
3) Pattman - DC
1:
1) Forte - B
2) Gamboa - Y
3) Tie - the rest
Bench:
1) Penn
2) PU
3) Tie - the rest
Team:
1) Penn - Needs to improve its half-court offense, but still looks like the most talented team.
2) PU - Getting Logan back will help. (25 RPG!!!, down 5 RPG from last year)
The goods news is Venable, and it appears that Savage can hit the 3.
3) Tie - H - What a difference Cusworth makes.
Y - Looks like the same team from the last 2 years.
5) Col - Jones still has this team hustling
6) B - If Miller gets to 4 or better this year, he deserves COY.
7) D - I wouldn't be surprised to see this team compete with Col & B
8) Cor - It doesn't appear that this team has replaced Barnes.
Pre-league POY candidates
1) Venable
2) Cusworth (yes, you heard it first from Rob)
3) Begley
Wallace will probably get back in the mix, but not based on his play to date.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-28-04 03:19 PM - Post#333
In response to Condor
Mid season? I wouldn't make any judgements based on any teams' season to date. I still don't have a clue whether we are 30 points worse than Providence, 30 points better than Drexel or something in between.
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Domer72
newbie
Posts: 29
Loc: Rural Iowa
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-28-04 03:36 PM - Post#334
In response to AsiaSunset
I thought mid-season was sometime in January!
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Anonymous
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-28-04 03:59 PM - Post#335
In response to AsiaSunset
Providence just got clobbered by Florida. This does not translate well for Penn, although transitivity is always tricky, and Providence was playing in it's 5th game in 10 days, or something like that.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-28-04 04:38 PM - Post#336
In response to AsiaSunset
Hey, wasn't that almost a flame?
I stand corrected on the Mid-Preseason heading.
Nevertheless, while teams may or may not work out their current challenges, I would argue as to whether it is too early to make some judgements.
For example, against smaller teams(Q-Pac & Drexel), Penn was able to dominate the boards. They were able to score in transition, and Begley got a number of open looks. Against Providence, Penn looked overmatched. However, the teams were probably closer than the score would indicate. PC was just hot. When a team shoots close to 70% from the field and from the 3, you are probably going to get clobbered. Ask USC 2 years ago. I would describe the Penn/Drexel game in similar fashion. Penn looks like the stronger team. When you add 78% 3-point shooting, it becomes a 30 point win. The fact is, the teams in the Ivy more closely approximate Drexel and Q-Pac than they do PC and Wisc.
To date, Penn's front court looks fairly strong, especially compared to its Ivy competitors. Harvard's frontcourt may very well represent their toughest challenge. I am certain the PU fans would disagree.
Ibby looked very tentative against Q-Pac and PC. The last two games he appears to have become more aggressive with good results in the Drexel game. I have to think he will keep getting better. It would be nice if Os could add to the scoring mix, but as long as Begley, Zoller, Danley, and Ibby are scoring, he doesn't need to score much.
Finally, Penn needs to improve its half-court sets. Whether they can improve enough to upset a good major, none of us know. However, I believe that they will improve enough to make them very difficult in the Ivy's.
Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily characterize Penn's play as contradictory as you appear to suggest. I just see it as varying results due to matchups and team/player development.
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Anonymous
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-28-04 09:36 PM - Post#337
In response to Condor
I certainly don't disagree about Harvard's frontcourt. Cusworth and Stehle are probably the best 4/5 in the league, at least until Logan returns, and maybe even then.
Martin and Kaplan are close in that mix, with Penn fourth.
Regarding the rankings at the beginning of the string, I do like Cusworth and Danley so far, in that order, but I think it is curious to put Gardner in there, for no apparent reason. Both Wallace and Martin have shown more, even if the results are less than is expected of them.
Preston has done the best of the fours statisically and in fact, followed by Stehle, with Zoller third.
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-28-04 11:54 PM - Post#338
In response to
I'm not sure that we've seen enough to call Penn the "most talented team." Yes, they had an impressive win against Drexel but the poundings they took from PC and Wisconsin were very un-Pennlike. I'm used to seeing Penn make good showings in games like these.
Princeton had good showings against Bucknell & Syracuse but looked ugly against Wyoming & Lafayette. This kind of ugly performance early in the season is not untypical of recent Princeton teams.
I would still give the nod to the experience and talent of Princeton at this point. I think they are still getting used to Scott's style of play and will gel down the road as the Ivy season approaches.
Also, I find it somewhat confusing that Princeton has only one player (Venable) in your top 15 Ivy players and yet is ranked second as a team. Is it their bench that makes them so good? Team chemistry? Coaching?
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-29-04 02:57 AM - Post#339
In response to TigerDave
Quote:
I find it somewhat confusing that Princeton has only one player (Venable) in your top 15 Ivy players and yet is ranked second as a team. Is it their bench that makes them so good? Team chemistry? Coaching?
Very simply, in my team analysis I couldn't ignore Logan's return and my expectation for improved play by Wallace. My position rankings are based on recent play. Hence, there is admittedly some inconsistency here (not unusual for "power rankings"). In addition, while Venable is the only player that I have listed for PU, he may be the best player on the board at this time.
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Condor
PhD Student
Posts: 1888
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-29-04 03:33 AM - Post#340
In response to
Quote:
Martin and Kaplan are close in that mix, with Penn fourth.
Rob, if you currently have Danley 2nd & Zoller 3rd at their respective positions, how do Martin/Kaplan add up to be better? Further, I am not certain everyone would agree with your perception of Martin's past play. Also, has Kaplan really shown enough yet, especially when you consider his shortened season last year?
Quote:
Preston has done the best of the fours statisically and in fact, followed by Stehle, with Zoller third.
While stats certainly dominate with the all-Ivy choices, I feel they can be overweighted in such an analysis. For example, while I think Preston is a fine player, I would probably take a healthy Logan over Preston. However, with Wallace and Venable as your primary scorers, I don't think Logan will ever have the big stats.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6412
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-29-04 01:29 PM - Post#341
In response to Condor
Thanks Condor. I always enjoy these items. My main comment is at PF, where I think Zoller probably should be down a couple of notches. He's had one excellent game, one good one (would be excellent if not for the turnovers), and two no-shows. I'm also not sure it's fair to take him into account both at the 4 and in your bench ratings (which I assume you did, because Penn certainly wouldn't be #1 at bench without Zoller).
Otherwise looks pretty reasonable to me. I think Wallace will figure out how to function in the more traditional center role and be fine. He's had little streaks like this before since his emergence.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4360
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-29-04 02:15 PM - Post#342
In response to Condor
Condor - not a flame, but a general observation on an attempt to rank players based on a handful of games against disparate opponents. This is a pool of players that none of us have really observed as a group, so basically this exercise consistes of looking at some boxscores and making wild assumptions.
Personally I've seen one Penn game on TV, listened to two on the Internet and read about the 4th. Can't say I have much of a fix on my team, let alone the individual players. As for other teams, I've read the articles on the site like most others, but I couldn't guess whether Preston has played better than Zoller or Kaplan.
All our opinions are subjective because we tend to see our own teams disproportionately, but at least when we make these subjective judgments using better data later on in the season, they have at least some small element of objectivity.
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Anonymous
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Re: Mid-Preseason Power Rankings
11-29-04 02:59 PM - Post#343
In response to AsiaSunset
Agree completely with Asia Sunset's observations about sample size, disparate opponents, and tinted lenses. An example: Does yesterday's Yale-UMass game affect your 5 rankings? Martin scored 23, was 10 for 12 from the field, and had nine rebounds in 27 minutes. (UMass' center was last year's A-10 ROY.) At least hold off on comparative assessments until after New Year's.
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