Kit
Senior
Posts: 380
Loc: Central Massachusetts
Reg: 11-29-04
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03-11-09 12:16 PM - Post#60864
Syd the Kid got his first victory over arch-rival Pennsylvania. Congrats to the Tigers! Next year, we'll be gunning for the Big Red and looking to capture the Ivy crown.
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-11-09 12:17 PM - Post#60865
In response to Kit
Kit:
Let's have a friendly wager. I say Penn beats your Tigers twice next year.
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Kit
Senior
Posts: 380
Loc: Central Massachusetts
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-11-09 12:24 PM - Post#60867
In response to Ancient Quaker
You're on.
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-11-09 12:31 PM - Post#60868
In response to Kit
Where do I come to collect -- Worcester, Sturbridge, Springfield, Winchendon?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-12-09 09:28 AM - Post#60966
In response to Ancient Quaker
You still want to make that bet, AQ?
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Kit
Senior
Posts: 380
Loc: Central Massachusetts
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-12-09 02:37 PM - Post#61008
In response to Ancient Quaker
Ancient Quaker:
You may mail payment to Leominster. Or perhaps, write a check payable the Princeton University Athletic Department. 
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-12-09 03:41 PM - Post#61022
In response to Kit
Yes, I'll still take it. I don't view Gaines to be as big a loss as others seem to. The keys will be getting Schreiber back, getting Reilly healthy and several more good freshmen (plus the outside possibility of getting Darren Smith healthy).
Leominster is too far to go to collect, though -- I'll send you my Swiss bank account number and you can wire transfer into it.
Edited by Ancient Quaker on 03-12-09 03:41 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-12-09 09:41 PM - Post#61039
In response to Ancient Quaker
I don't view Gaines to be as big a loss as others seem to. The keys will be getting Schreiber back, getting Reilly healthy and several more good freshmen (plus the outside possibility of getting Darren Smith healthy).
Gaines was the team's second leading scorer, best finisher and only other PG (off a 6th place team). It's not simply that he's a big loss, he's a big unnecessary loss.
One could argue that the losses of Lewis and Votel aren't that big IF Schreiber, Reilly, Howlett, Loughery and Turley come back healthy and Fitzpatrick can help.
One could argue that losing Egee isn't that big because of the incoming Carson Sullivan, the possibility of Smith coming back and the ability of Gaines to score. But losing Egee AND Gaines? How is the loss of Gaines not big?
Who gives Rosen a rest at the PG? What happens if Rosen misses a game? Who breaks down opposing man-to-man defenses?
Right now your backcourt for next year is:
Rosen PG with Belcore and Bernardini, backed up Monckton and two freshmen, Sullivan and Malcolm Washington, the other PG, and maybe Smith. You think that group could be better than the same group with Gaines? Come on.
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penn62
PhD Student
Posts: 1053
Reg: 11-27-05
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-12-09 10:15 PM - Post#61046
In response to Howard Gensler
Gaines does not have a PG skill set. He's a lousy passer. The loss is that he could create his own shot and Penn had no one else who could.
"Wait til next year".
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-12-09 10:23 PM - Post#61053
In response to penn62
Gaines does not have a PG skill set. He's a lousy passer. The loss is that he could create his own shot and Penn had no one else who could. "Wait til next year".
I know Gaines didn't average great assist numbers this year, but that's because he was asked to do something completely different than what he was asked to do last year. I disagree completely that "he's a lousy passer". He certainly doesn't have the vision that Rosen has, but I saw him make some great passes this year. Additionally, don't forget that he averaged 3.6 assists a game last year in only 22 minutes, with an assist to turnover ratio of 1.78. I don't think you do that as a freshman if you're a "lousy passer".
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penn62
PhD Student
Posts: 1053
Reg: 11-27-05
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03-13-09 09:40 AM - Post#61074
In response to Mike Porter
A PG must see the whole floor. Gaines did not see the whole floor and may never do so. He will be much easier to replace than Rosen would.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-13-09 09:56 AM - Post#61080
In response to penn62
You must be kidding, '62. Without denigrating Rosen, whom I love, it is much easier to find somone who can competently play the point than find true talent. It's not even close. We have no one else who can beat a man off the dribble and take it to the hoop. I have been screaming that we need dribble penetration for years---we have (had) the guy who can break down opposing defenses like no one else in the league and he is easy to replace? Plus, the numbers don't support your claim that Gaines doesn't see the court---he averaged just under 4 assists last year. At the end of this season, when he was playing more point, he made some great passes. If you are criticizing his lack of passing off the drive---who did you want him to pass to? And when did Rosen pass in dribble penetration?
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penn62
PhD Student
Posts: 1053
Reg: 11-27-05
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03-13-09 09:55 PM - Post#61154
In response to palestra38
We'll see as we get into next season. The main point now is that he's gone and the program must determine how the remaining players feel about playing for Miller. If this is a trend we will end up as the laughing stock of the league. Bilsky must talk to the players after spring break.
Frankly I was never that impressed with Gaines game. Scores 20 one night and 2 the next. And his shot selection IMHO was very suspect. To answer your questions, he might have tried to pass to Jack in dribble penetration as I saw Rosen do all season. Sure it is easy to find someone who can competently play the point but not so easy to find a PG who can also lead.
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-13-09 11:36 PM - Post#61156
In response to Howard Gensler
Howard:
As Chip would say "Go back and read my words".
Nowhere did I say that "losing Gaines is not a big loss".
What I did say was "I don't view Gaines to be as big a loss as others seem to."
In other words, while I am very sorry to see Harrison leave and feel that he could have been an important asset the next two years, I do not believe that his departure has sentenced Penn to second tier status. If the walking wounded (I didn't even mention Howlett and Loughery) get healthy, I think we will have a successful season next year. With or without Miller as the coach.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-14-09 08:18 PM - Post#61177
In response to palestra38
You must be kidding, '62. Without denigrating Rosen, whom I love, it is much easier to find somone who can competently play the point than find true talent. It's not even close. We have no one else who can beat a man off the dribble and take it to the hoop. I have been screaming that we need dribble penetration for years---we have (had) the guy who can break down opposing defenses like no one else in the league and he is easy to replace? Plus, the numbers don't support your claim that Gaines doesn't see the court---he averaged just under 4 assists last year. At the end of this season, when he was playing more point, he made some great passes. If you are criticizing his lack of passing off the drive---who did you want him to pass to? And when did Rosen pass in dribble penetration?
Here we were starting to agree on some things and then you make a nutty claim about how easy it is to find a competent PG. First, Rosen is better than a competent PG. In another year or two he will be an all-League PG. It is without question, the hardest position to fill except for stud big man which no one in the League fills with any regularity.
Remember the last decade.
Jordan: Title
Klatsky: No title
Toole: Title
Copp: No title
Osmundson: Title
Jaaber: Title
And Klatsky and Copp were competent PGs.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-14-09 08:25 PM - Post#61178
In response to penn62
A PG must see the whole floor. Gaines did not see the whole floor and may never do so. He will be much easier to replace than Rosen would.
I didn't know it was an either/or proposition.
Gaines does not see the whole floor as well as Rosen, but he did have 98 assists (to 55 TOs) as a freshman. For comparison's sake, Michael Jordan had 72 assists as a freshman. Ibby Jaaber had 15.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-14-09 08:29 PM - Post#61179
In response to Ancient Quaker
In other words, while I am very sorry to see Harrison leave and feel that he could have been an important asset the next two years, I do not believe that his departure has sentenced Penn to second tier status. If the walking wounded (I didn't even mention Howlett and Loughery) get healthy, I think we will have a successful season next year. With or without Miller as the coach.
I agree that his departure will not sentence Penn to second tier status. They're already there. The question is will his departure make it more difficult for Penn to regain first tier status. Unless you've got a crystal ball and a scope view of Darren Smith's knee, there can only be one answer to that and it's "Yes."
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penn62
PhD Student
Posts: 1053
Reg: 11-27-05
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03-14-09 09:59 PM - Post#61183
In response to Howard Gensler
Of course it's not a either/or proposition. My point was that it is extremely difficult to find a PG who is also a leader. In my opinion, Rosen is that already.
I, too, am sorry to see Gaines leave, but feel we will do allright without him. I do not think he will ever make the players around him better as an outstanding PG must and presenty his outside shot is inadequate as a 2. I saw quite alot of undisciplined play from him this year. Of course he wasn't the only one.
Gaines is history. My concern now is that the players who remain may be dispirited.
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Ancient Quaker
Masters Student
Posts: 648
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Princeton beats Penn at the Palestra
03-15-09 09:44 AM - Post#61200
In response to Howard Gensler
I don't have either one, of course.
But I do know, as do you, that the single most important predictor of success in this league over the past 30 years has been experience. You've posted on this many times. Talented underclassmen lose to less talented upperclassmen more often than not.
The next few years, we'll be the "team with experience", instead of the "team with talented youngsters". That in itself is not enough, of course, as I stated in my original post -- we need the walking wounded to get healthy. Best guess is that that will not include Smith, so I'm hoping that all the others can come back at 100% or close to it. If they do, Penn can be pretty good next year and very good the year after that. Regardless of who the coach may be.
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 4141
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-09 10:47 AM - Post#61203
In response to Ancient Quaker
I hate to be disagreeing again but this team has left me in a fairly disagreeable state.
Part of having that improved experience (which I agree is essential) was Gaines. He was 1184 minutes of D1 play (not to mention Penn's most efficient offensive player as a freshman - points + assists per minute - and third most efficient this year). I've harped on Harrison's weaknesses as much as anyone but it's inarguable that he was one of our top returning players.
Without him, Penn is again not that experienced as a team and VERY inexperienced up front (since so many forwards were hurt and two seniors - Votel and Lewis - logged the bulk of the time). Next year's returning minutes:
JR. Eggleston: 1674
JR. Bernardini: 1453
SO. Rosen: 872
SR. Reilly: 669
SR./JR. Schreiber: 552
SO. Belcore: 482
SR./JR. Smith: 398
JR. Turley: 296
JR. Monckton: 110
SO. Howlett: 64
SO. Loughery: 59
SO. Hunt: 9
Without Gaines returning, next year's team has two experienced juniors (Jack, Tyler), one experienced soph (Rosen), one semi-experienced soph (Belcore) and two upperclass forwards (Reilly, Schreiber) who've played fewer minutes than most sophomores.
They will have far less experience than Cornell, obviously, and be slightly less experienced than Harvard, who has a very experienced all-Ivy senior in Lin and whose freshmen (Kenyi, Wright, McNally, Boehm) all logged more minutes than Belcore. With Brown, Princeton and Columbia they'll be sort of even. They should be more experienced than Yale and Dartmouth.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32906
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-15-09 11:00 AM - Post#61206
In response to Howard Gensler
After killing me all year on Gaines (and to a lesser extent, Reilly) Howard, let me welcome you to Reality. It's bad....really bad. Essentially, we have a slow, white (and not White Magic), small and weak team. While I am as fully entralled with "Hoosiers" as many of the posters here, it is not real life. We will not win with better ball movement and fundamentals. We will lose. Badly.
Harrison Gaines was the only possibility we had to out-match Cornell in any particular area. When he was on, they had no one who could guard him. Now, they simply do everything a little better (and in the backcourt, a lot better) than what Penn can bring at them.
By losing all of his most athletic recruits to transfer or injury, Miller is going to put a Joe Scott team out there next year. His locker room is rumored here to be about as healthy as Scott's, too.
This is awful. I see no light ahead.
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