Condor
Masters Student
Posts: 892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-09 07:50 AM - Post#61968
I know this is a somewhat taboo subject, but I am wondering how many of you think we would have been better off in the ACC. If we were in that conference, no doubt Penn would have a top 25 BB team. Further, just as no one has difficulty differentiating between Michigan and Michigan St, everyone would know the difference between Penn and Penn St. Finally, instead of being the poor sister of Harvard, we would be one of the glamour schools in the ACC along with Duke. Hence, we definitely gain from a branding perspective. Further, I am not certain we lose anything in terms of academic reputation. Perhaps we even gain.
While just an academic question, bottom line, do you think we lose or gain by staying in the Ivy’s?
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penndulum
Freshman
Posts: 85
Age: 72
Loc: Greater Boston
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Staying in the Ivy League?
03-28-09 10:07 AM - Post#61970
In response to Condor
I have posted similar sentiments on this board with no responses from anyone. I too understand this issue is all academic cuz it aint gonna happen but, for some reason, no one wants to discuss it. Such is life!
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 2605
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-09 11:05 AM - Post#61971
In response to penndulum
I think we inadvertently discuss it all the time when we talk about scholarships.
I don't know how many years ago it was but after I graduated I wrote a guest column for the DP about why Penn should join the ACC - I think I thought at the time it should be in everything in football - and that the ACC should toss Clemson into the SEC, where it would be a better fit.
Now that BC and Miami have joined the ACC and made it a superconference, the argument is different but at the time I envisioned an ACC with UNC, Duke, Ga. Tech, Virginia, Maryland, Wake Forest, Florida St. and Penn with Penn giving the conference a major northeast TV market and tipping the academic scale so that the ACC would inarguably the top academic major conference.
Alas.
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palestra38
Postdoc
Posts: 4601
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Staying in the Ivy League?
03-28-09 11:32 AM - Post#61972
In response to penndulum
We have discussed it here many times in the past. Penn will never voluntarily withdraw from the Ivies---the association with HYP has lifted Penn from being a glorified trade and legacy school to one of the top research universites in the world. Penn is where it is as an institution because it joined a sports conference---ironic but true. No change for sports purposes is worth the tradeoff.
Change should occur within the Ivies.
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Condor
Masters Student
Posts: 892
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Staying in the Ivy League?
03-28-09 02:02 PM - Post#61974
In response to palestra38
Penn was the first university in the U.S., the fourth colonial college, the first medical school, the first business school, etc., and yet you believe that Penn owes all its success to HYP. Is there really evidence to support your statement beyond some growth correlations? While I admit I am not prepared to debate this issue, I find it hard to believe.
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Condor
Masters Student
Posts: 892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-09 03:08 PM - Post#61977
In response to Howard Gensler
Howard,
If you are inclined to share your thoughts, and ignoring the issues of feasibility, how would you feel about such a change today? Further, what do you think the impact would be on Penn’s academic standing?
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Howard Gensler
Postdoc
Posts: 2605
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-09 03:11 PM - Post#61978
In response to Condor
I'm with the Condor. Penn was a great school before 1954 and if it was seen by some as a glorified trade and legacy school that's because almost every university back then was seen as a glorified trade and legacy school.
Two of the university's biggest donors, Walter Annenberg and William Paley, both graduated in the pre-Ivy days as did all the beloved Munger Men, like Chuck Bednarik. Warren Buffett came to Penn before it was an Ivy school and things have seemed to work out well for him. Harold Prince, perhaps theater's finest director came pre-Ivy as did Senator Arlen Specter. President William Henry Harrison flunked out of Penn long before Penn improved its reputation by joining the Ivies. Kwame Nkrumah, the first president of Ghana, was a pre-Ivy Penn man. The founders of H&R Block, Henry and Richard Bloch, did something with their Penn education even though they graduated before Penn joined the Ivy League. Somehow C. Everett Koop managed to become surgeon general with a pre-Ivy Penn degree. Owen J. Roberts and William Brennan made it all the way to Supreme Court with pre-Ivy Penn degrees.
The list goes on and on.
Like so many things related to Penn (and Philadelphia) it sees its success by association because it chooses to. Maybe Penn wouldn't be No. 4 in the USN&WR poll if it weren't in the Ivies but it would still be among the top universities in the country.
And it would could be a leader instead of a follower.
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Condor
Masters Student
Posts: 892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-28-09 03:49 PM - Post#61979
In response to Howard Gensler
Thanks, I needed that.
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pchrystie
Senior
Posts: 363
Reg: 03-14-06
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03-28-09 05:09 PM - Post#61980
In response to Howard Gensler
USNWR Top National Colleges/Universities 2009:
1. Ivy
2. Ivy
3. Ivy
4. Stanford - non-Ivy w/good athletics
4. Non-Ivy
6. Penn
6. Non-Ivy
8. Duke - non-Ivy w/good athletics
8. Non-Ivy
8. Ivy
In other words, 5 of the "top 10" are non-Ivies (and two of them have excellent sports programs), so it doesn't appear that you have to be in the Ivy League to be well thought of.
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penndulum
Freshman
Posts: 85
Age: 72
Loc: Greater Boston
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-28-09 06:45 PM - Post#61982
In response to Condor
Ammen Brother!!
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Redfish
Senior
Posts: 395
Loc: under a bridge in Phoenix...
Reg: 11-26-04
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03-28-09 11:35 PM - Post#61985
In response to penndulum
The majority of students at Penn could care less about the athletic teams.
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magic3db
Junior
Posts: 204
Loc: North Carolina
Reg: 07-26-08
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03-28-09 11:52 PM - Post#61986
In response to Redfish
Why would they care about athletic teams that are no longer competitive? The world likes winners and we haven't had many wins recently.
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caughtinasnare
Junior
Posts: 235
Age: 21
Reg: 02-21-09
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03-29-09 01:20 AM - Post#61988
In response to Howard Gensler
I'm sorta shocked that you didn't mention the most famous sports name to ever come out of Penn...John Heisman! He was WELL before the Ivy League existed. Being that it's a sports board, I feel that should be in there, even if we don't get much prestige out of that because it's not common knowledge that he was a Quaker player and coach.
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JDP
Sophomore
Posts: 145
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-29-09 01:49 AM - Post#61989
In response to caughtinasnare
Not that I think there will be any changes to the Ivy League in the near future, but if Penn were to leave, would any of the other seven care? would an 8th school be added to the mix? Who would be the likely choice?
Since this is all hypothetical, as for what league Penn would join, perhaps I am picking up on to an idea I once heard from Howard, but it would be the rigorous academic schools with good athletics, with the exception of football. BTW, Howard, I believe you wrote the two part ACC column back in the spring of 1989. Not sure how many fans would make every road game …
Inaugural 8 members of a new league:
Duke (ACC) - NC
Georgetown (Big East) - DC
Northwestern (Big10) - IL
Notre Dame (Big East) - IL
Pennsylvania (Ivy League) - PA
Rice (C-USA) - TX
Vanderbilt (SEC) – TN
Virginia (ACC) - VA
Fri/Sat basketball travel partner: Penn & Georgetown, Duke & Virginia (the new Harvard & Dartmouth), Northwestern & Notre Dame (the new Columbia & Cornell) and Rice & Vanderbilt (the new Brown-Yale)
ND football will still be an independent
Would like Stanford and some other western schools – to make a second group of 8
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caughtinasnare
Junior
Posts: 235
Age: 21
Reg: 02-21-09
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03-29-09 04:00 AM - Post#61990
In response to JDP
A school like Fordham would probably be a decent fit in that kind of league, though their basketball program has gotten pretty bad in the last few years (they were ranked 317 by Pomeroy, and as a point of note, Brown and Dartmouth were 302 and 304 respectively...). Fordham has pretty good academics and they don't really fit well into their league, being that they are actually in two of them (Patriot for football, A-10 for most everything else). It's also worth noting that the Rose Hill gym is the oldest in college hoops, so it would help add to the historicness of the league (would be cool to have the oldest football and basketball facilities in the NCAA in the same league). Would probably make the traveling partners better if a school like Rice got replaced with Fordham, too. Penn would match up with Fordham instead of G-town, G-Town would match up with UVA, and Duke would match up with Vanderbilt. If there was a western contingent, Rice could be a part of that, but I can't gather together enough schools to get 8. Rice, Stanford, UCLA, and then what?
I don't think this whole new conference idea thing is particularly realistic, as I'm sure you don't, but I also could use some entertainment at 4AM so this has to do, sadly.
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JDP
Sophomore
Posts: 145
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-29-09 08:03 AM - Post#61991
In response to caughtinasnare
Fordham is a great suggestion. Rice is defiantly to far west and south for the eastern contingent and the league definitely needs a NYC presence. Definitely a better basketball experience then Levian.
As for the western contingent, I go Stanford, Rice, UCLA, Cal – and then my east coast focus limits me going any further.
I agree, this is all for some entertainment value while watching a Big 5 partner and the son of a Penn star both make the Final 4. But if you think Penn would even be bold enough to leave the Ivy League, then it might not be a stretch for it to show leadership and start an entirely new league of well respected scholarly and athletically focused institutions. And that could cause a few other leagues to realign … much more enjoyable chaos than watching wall street firms being forced to realign.
Plus a new league puts the remaining Ivies one step closer to being a perennial invitee to a second NCAA tournament play-in game.
Now we just need a name for the conference – since it’s Elite 8 weekend – the conference should be called The Eligere
Duke (ACC) - NC
Fordham (A-10) - NY
Georgetown (Big East) - DC
Northwestern (Big10) - IL
Notre Dame (Big East) - IL
Pennsylvania (Ivy League) - PA
Vanderbilt (SEC) – TN
Virginia (ACC) - VA
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palestra38
Postdoc
Posts: 4601
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-29-09 08:28 AM - Post#61992
In response to Howard Gensler
H&R Block? Evidence of academic excellence?
Howard, you miss my point. Yes, almost all top schools were "trade and legacy schools" up to the '40s. Penn started accepting Jews in number before HYP (and the majority of those you mention are from the Tribe) which led to closing the perceived (and perception is what we always are talking about in University rankings) gap but it was only admission to the Ivies that put Penn in the same discussion as these schools. Even in my time (mid-late '70s), Penn was (not just called) a safety school for those who aimed at HYP. Playing in the same league allowed Penn to draw on donors who wanted an "Ivy" legacy---the huge development of the late '60s through the late '70s and again in the '90s is what gave Penn an Ivy feel, which it certainly did not have in the '50s.
You want to know what Penn would be without the Ivies?
NYU.
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Condor
Masters Student
Posts: 892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-29-09 09:15 AM - Post#61993
In response to JDP
I am still satisfied with the ACC. However, if we are talking about a good athletic conference with good academics, how about:
6 Penn
8 Duke
12 Northwestern
18 Notre Dame
18 Vanderbilt
23 Georgetown
23 Virginia
26 Michigan
28 Wake Forest
30 UNC
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JDP
Sophomore
Posts: 145
Reg: 11-23-04
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03-29-09 09:57 AM - Post#61994
In response to Condor
How long before Michigan plays a close conference football game? Assuming Rodriguez is not Harry Gamble.
Since Princeton may have the highest percentage of Ivy students involved in NCAA athletics (they are the winningest Ivy school for the past decade or so) – in this crazy scenario would not be surprised to see them want to jump as well!
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Ben Franklin
Senior
Posts: 370
Loc: Texas
Reg: 02-19-05
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Staying in the Ivy League?
03-29-09 11:15 AM - Post#61995
In response to JDP
Tulane is the most natural travel partner for Rice.
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