AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-24-15 11:42 AM - Post#183475
In response to Jeff2sf
I'm not saying we would have beaten a Cornell team that Steve cobbled together with a bit of luck and that reached the sweet 16 that last year. But we had a very nice incoming class that year and a top level player would have made that Penn team so much better.
Would the wheels still have fallen off the wagon under Miller? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-24-15 11:50 AM - Post#183478
In response to AsiaSunset
I'm in the "if only" camp with respect to Miller. He never had the full team he recruited healthy and if could have added Jeppesen to Rosen, Belcore, Eggleston, Bernardini, Monckton, Cofield, Gaines, Howlett, Turley and Loughery---all his recruits (leaving out Doc and Miles, who were in his last class inherited by Jerome), that was a collection of talent that could have won one or more Ivy titles and we'd all be singing a different tune. I know that Jeff in particular criticized then and now the hiring of Miller, but his recruiting (far above what we now have in talent) and his subsequent service at UConn make it pretty clear that it was a justifiable hire.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 11:51 AM - Post#183479
In response to umbrellaman
He would have had two years of eligibilty.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 12:12 PM - Post#183480
In response to QuakerPTPer
Not decisions - influence from Ivy peers.
Specifically Ruth Simmons on the Jeppersen issue and Shirley Tilighman on the lacrosse player I referenced
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-24-15 12:25 PM - Post#183482
In response to Jeff2sf
It's also not correct that Jeppesen was first team all-ivy (and he obviously wasn't unanimous). Jeppesen was 2nd team All-Ivy that year.
The other unanimous guy besides Ibby was Scott Greenamn. Here's a link.
http://www.brownbears.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec- rel...
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Penn94
PhD Student
Posts: 1461
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-24-15 12:57 PM - Post#183486
In response to SomeGuy
Was just going to post this SG.
Asia's passion for Penn sports is admirable to say the least, and we all know he, like all of us, wants the best for the program.
But his constant ability to allow his "sources" inside the Penn Athletic Department to feed him mis-information (I assume Asia was told that Jeppesen was unanimous first-team all Ivy by his sources) shows that the information he has received should not be trusted.
I do like Asia's posts though, as it gives us all a window into what Steve Bilsky is thinking.
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 574
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-24-15 01:05 PM - Post#183488
In response to Penn94
Here's what I don't get. Why doesn't Gutmann understand the marketing/branding value of these teams?
I could understand the argument that football isn't such an opportunity because it's so small-time at this point.
But basketball? You've got a small roster, potential to make money, or at least recoup some costs, in the post-season. And with the post-season comes valuable televised promotion, broadcasting Penn around the nation.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-24-15 01:19 PM - Post#183490
In response to Penn90
Of course, your argument goes double for hockey. It is embarrassing for Penn State to be the representative program playing games at the Wells Fargo Center, when the Ivies are actually competitive nationally in hockey, there is a perfectly good arena here and there is a gaping void for affordable hockey in that the Phantoms moved out.
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seas2k4
Junior
Posts: 274
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 01:33 PM - Post#183493
In response to AsiaSunset
Asia --
Thanks for the well-thought out post.
Why would you not share the name of the coach who was supposed to come on board?
Thanks. SEAS
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Ernie Nounou
Freshman
Posts: 12
Reg: 12-21-14
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 01:49 PM - Post#183495
In response to AsiaSunset
Mr. Asia Sunset, welcome back. Please read the following as from the shoulder and not intended to be personal.
I'm new to this forum since late '14 but have been on the other side of virtually all our posts on the DP. Your initial post to start this discussion - while mostly on point - is regrettably too little too late. Recall our consistent laments over 8 years has been that Penn sports is lacking in commitment from the top, is mismanaged, and underfunded. You've invariably taken issue every time. Why change now?
What was especially frustrating in our exchanges was your multiple versions of our not being as in-the-know as you, and if we were, we wouldn't be holding those opinions. Plus your denials of being an insider, yet with insider access and info without providing proof, was a less than ideal basis for exchange. If you knew all this stuff, why not speak up earlier when it might have had more significant impact?
Consider last year's DP Sr. Sports Editor Mike Tony's pieces on the sports budget and conclusions that Penn's was the lowest Ivy budget. He wondered how the program could come back without a more significant commitment? You pushed back via CPA style nitpicks and assured that the budget was not a significant issue.
If I read "Musings" correctly, you are now proving that Penn is unwilling to pay what it takes for its two premiere sports to be competitive with other Ivies. If this is so, and I truly believe it is, why bother with all the pretense and mendacity by President Gutmann et al? BTW - She doesn't operate in a vacuum, and there are other trustees she is supposed to answer to, and who are woven into Penn sports culture. Where are they? Last I heard, the trustees voted her a unilateral 10-yr extension. So to a Penn sports fan, where's the hope for a better future coming from? The Ivies are bi-furcating into haves and have-nots, and Penn is defaulting to a have-not. If so, my own preference would be to preserve the history, don't tarnish it with sub-optimal effort, and go club sport a la U of Chicago.
Reading "Musings" on the same day that a just-retired legendary FB coach is taking over at Columbia - which is ironically demonstrating sports commitment - how can one conclude other than that Penn sports Dark Ages are undeniably here?
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3995
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-24-15 02:22 PM - Post#183501
In response to umbrellaman
Keenan is also an active member of the Brown Basketball alumni and played in this year's alumni game.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-24-15 02:27 PM - Post#183502
In response to Ernie Nounou
A few thoughts:
- Welcome back, Asia. I always appreciate your posts.
- Jeff2SF - re-read your first post in reply. I understand that you probably don't understand why people get irritated by these replies - but maybe focus less on the "you" accusations and just state your own feelings about the issue.
- Asia's post is the best investigative reporting we've had, as the DP, inquirer, and people on this board have such limited access. We can all apply our own filter to it just as we should with Fox News and MSNBC.
- Even though Jeff2SF, Palestra38, and Ernie Nounou seem to have disagreements with Asia and his assessments of Bilsky, I think just about everyone can agree that we have a systemic issue in our administration and that this could spell trouble for Penn Athletics and our beloved hoops program.
- Whether it was Bilsky or Gutman (or both), it does seem likely that these problems will persist and carry forward for a long time. The only thing that could convince me that we can stop this trend of failure is if the AD and President step up for a new head coach.
- If Gutman is anything like my wife, I can see why she doesn't recognize the importance of athletics. My wife just thinks it's absolutely ridiculous how much sports matters to this country and how I follow Penn basketball on the internet. While I am sympathetic that point of view, Gutman should realize that people are the way they are - and therefore it simply matters for that reason alone. I am not trying to make this a gender issue. The previous Penn President was a woman who I believe led a golden age for Penn academically and in athletics. I have been told by a school leader / faculty member that Gutman means well but is not a good leader who empowers people in the administration.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 02:29 PM - Post#183503
In response to AsiaSunset
In regard to the President's impression of whether something is wrong, isn't having a player go to jail about as embarrassing as it gets? Even if she doesn't think wins and losses matter, there is at least some evidence that a culture change would be good for both the team and the school.
For the record, I don't have the info to say that there really is a team culture issue, or that if there is that it had anything to do with the Bagtas matter. Good teams with a strong team culture still have such things arise now and again.
My point is merely that there are a lot of different reasons one could hang their hat on in making a strong coaching change at this juncture.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-24-15 02:36 PM - Post#183506
In response to Penn94
Absolutely -- I am very happy to have Asiasunset back (hopefully for more than a moment). I meant to clarify a fact, not to criticize (or question any of the other content).
Now, if we can just get Howard back on here.
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QHoops
Senior
Posts: 369
Reg: 12-16-04
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02-24-15 02:52 PM - Post#183508
In response to SomeGuy
Not for nothing, but the discussion about the potential impact of one player being a turning point - I always thought that losing Rob Hodgson to Rutgers was a very significant loss for the program.
He, Ira, and Krug would have made a pretty formidable nucleus which could have continued the very high level of play that Jerome/Maloney/Pierce had established. .
But alas, his Penn career consisted of one night in High Rise North.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-24-15 02:53 PM - Post#183509
In response to SomeGuy
Did Howard quite the board? I know I haven't seen postings, but didn't know if it was on purpose.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 03:08 PM - Post#183510
In response to Ernie Nounou
Ernie
Penn's basketball and football coaches have historically been among the highest, if not the highest, paid coaches in the league. Funding relative to the competition is only out of whack when you look at the Amaker transaction and the very recent step up by Columbia. Because we didn't step up when Fran got the Temple offer doesn't mean he was underpaid relative to other Ivy coaches. So please - don't draw implications from my post that were not intended.
What I wrote in my initial post is that Amy Guttmann, through her past actions, didn't demonstrate a special commitment or even understanding opposite our mens basketball program that would have allowed us to move forward and to correct certain missteps that are squarely on Bilsky's shoulders. This may be because she doesn't care or doesn't understand that basketball holds a special place in the hearts and minds of Penn alumni and students (at least it used to). One can only hope Grace Calhoun has more leeway to right the ship.
As for others snide Bilsky comments in this thread aimed at me by others, I've stated clearly that he has to be held accountable for everything, but context is important. There are guidelines that a Penn AD is forced to operate under which hopefully Grace can persuade Amy to liberalize. Hopefully Bollinger has made it easier for her to do so.
Guttmann did play a very significant role in fundraising to help Penn Athletics create facilities that in many cases are superior to Ivy counterparts. And many teams have seen improvement as a result - notably lacrosse, softball, soccer, baseball and field hockey. She deserves credit for that.
Penn athletics is not in the toilet as you have consistently postulated. We are just not dominant. We don't have significant AI advantages. We do have certain fin aid disadvantages with respect to certain segments of the recruitable athlete pool and we don't have as strong a brand as H,Y or P. But, Penn men's basketball definitely is in the tiolet. And with the footprint Harvard has established in basketball, I think money and increased funding commitment is necessary for Penn to dig its way out. And - in my opinion - some of the names being tossed around as great candidates to get that job done (Toole, Langel etc) aren't the answer. The landscape has really shifted in the last few years. Harvard went with it. Columbia has taken action for its flagging football program. Will Penn do something in men's basketball. I really don't know. Amy's track record makes me skeptical.
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T.P.F.K.A.D.W.
PhD Student
Posts: 1171
Loc: Our Nation's Capital
Reg: 01-18-05
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 03:18 PM - Post#183511
In response to AsiaSunset
Asia,
Any idea how much money Mr. Rockwell ponied up to endow the men's basketball coaching position? I suspect it's not nearly enough to cover his entire salary, but I assume it provides some subsidy. And since his name is on the position, does he have any say at all in the hiring process?
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Ernie Nounou
Freshman
Posts: 12
Reg: 12-21-14
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Re: Musings
02-24-15 05:18 PM - Post#183525
In response to AsiaSunset
Asia - Thanks, but no Dunphy implications were drawn, and while I recognize this is a mostly BB forum, I'm a Penn sports program (all sports) alum. Apriori I apologize to other members for including some history, but I feel it is necessary for establishing credibility.
Bilsky the player was and remains a genuine hero to me, and I was fine with his AD role until the Glen Miller situation - not the hiring, but the failure to manage it. Having been satisfied with Penn sports because it was a winner, I began to notice multiple anecdotal issues dealing with hiring and firing of coaches. A group of us surveyed Ivy League Sports office data that demonstrated that over a 10 year period less than 30% of Penn teams had winning records against other Ivies. This record, the mismanagement of coaches, and the Miller/BB disaster led us to wonder if the Overseers and Trustees were supervising the AD as was their responsibility. The answer was a decided "No"!
We shined a spotlight on Wightman Hall policies including the budget in the annual report and pie charts. If one bothers to read the footnotes and track the numbers, one could see that Penn was consistently reducing its true financial commitment. So one doesn't need to draw any inferences from your Dunphy or other comments to understand that Penn sports was/is being run on the cheap.
President Gutmann was said to be impressed by the power of sports on the local community, as she related to the Penn Boston Club, having just witnessed the Red Sox first World Series victory. So she knows the power of sports or said she did. But then again she says a lot of things.
Eight years ago when we first began calling for Regime Change, many pointed out that only FB and especially BB counted. The rest meant little. And now both programs and the "crown jewel" are sadly in the toilet - and I take little joy in saying I told you so. The trends were there, and the shortchanging has finally caught up with these once marvelous and historical programs.
Let's be clear, President Gutmann's sports funding policy is in my words: Penn can have the sports program the alumni and interested parties are willing to afford! With the Amaker and other realities on the shifted ground, her policy is not viable, and Penn can't succeed with a program run on the cheap. As for Penn Park, sure it beats the former facilities, but the other Ivies haven't stood in place either. Anyone who believes Penn has extra special facilities among the Ivies, let alone providing recruiting advantages, needs to get out more.
Asia, you provided several comparative advantages to HYP and now Columbia vis brand and money. Penn has to meet the current realities. It has clearly failed to do so for multiple years now, and it has broken my heart. To expect different outcomes with the same set of forces in play and no version of the late Dr. Fields (RIP) among the Trustees, is another variation of the insanity definition.
Good luck to those who still believe; my worst fears have been realized, and I am no longer among you.
Edited by Ernie Nounou on 02-24-15 05:29 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-24-15 05:39 PM - Post#183528
In response to Ernie Nounou
Nice to have you back Asia.
I'm of the opinion that Amy will give Grace some flexibility in light of recent events. Grace must have been assured she would be empowered before she took the job. If not, she's not smart enough to have it. I also agree that the whales will have to come up with the money. Amy has shut the tap at current levels.
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