rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3066
Reg: 10-20-14
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04-18-16 10:31 PM - Post#206299
Interesting and lengthy article on the firing of Paul Cormier.
http://thedartmouth.com/2016/04/17/the-case-o f-pau...
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mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Paper Evaluates Cormier Firing
04-19-16 10:37 AM - Post#206318
In response to rbg
Solid job by The Dartmouth in covering this fairly. The article gets pretty close to the crux of the issue that I've been hearing: Sheehy and Cormier didn't get along. That some of the players didn't like Cormier was probably the nail in the coffin, but it really comes down to the bad relationship between those two.
The one issue I have is that the Dartmouth performance data is rarely put into context. Here is the Dartmouth historical page on College Basketball Reference:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/dartmo...
If you sort by SRS, which is a rating system that goes back to the 50s, and just look at the AI era teams, here are the Top 10 from the ~35 seasons under the Academic Index system:
1 1996-97 -0.44 Dave Faucher (18-8)
2 2014-15 -3.11 Paul Cormier (14-15)
3 1987-88 -4.33 Paul Cormier (18-8)
4 2013-14 -4.85 Paul Cormier (12-16)
5 2015-16 -5.58 Paul Cormier (10-18)
6 1988-89 -5.97 Paul Cormier (17-9)
7 1986-87 -6.73 Paul Cormier (15-11)
8 1992-93 -7.56 Dave Faucher (11-15)
9 1995-96 -8.8 Dave Faucher (16-10)
10 2012-13 -9.21 Paul Cormier (9-19)
So, Cormier has seven of these in 13 seasons at the helm in Hanover.
If you look at the worst 10 seasons of the AI era for Dartmouth, Cormier has two of these. Both were his first seasons as coach in each of his two stints. And both times, he had Dartmouth back into the AI era Top 10 within two seasons.
1 2009-10 -18.46 Terry Dunn (3-10)
2 2003-04 -18.29 Dave Faucher (3-25)
3 1984-85 -17.28 Paul Cormier (5-21)
4 1981-82 -15.78 Tim Cohane (7-19)
5 1997-98 -15.61 Dave Faucher (7-19)
6 2010-11 -14.86 Paul Cormier (5-23)
7 1999-00 -14.72 Dave Faucher (9-18)
8 1991-92 -14.61 Dave Faucher (10-16)
Mark Graupe (2-13)
9 2007-08 -14.56 Terry Dunn (10-18)
10 2000-01 -14.38 Dave Faucher (8-19)
So, while it's easy to show graphs of his winning percentage and say that he never took Dartmouth to the promised land, it's clear that he was the most productive coach the Big Green has had in the AI era. Twice.
If the grand plan here is, much like Harvard, to make a big splash and dedicate $$$ to overhauling the program, that would be one thing. But Dartmouth isn't going to find a better coach than Cormier for its current level of commitment to basketball.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Dartmouth Paper Evaluates Cormier Firing
04-19-16 10:53 AM - Post#206320
In response to mrjames
Also, I'm not sure that firing Cormier at this juncture is a real good signal to future candidates. Yes, it's a competitive business and there are only so many of these jobs out there. But you had an established coach who had the team on a generally positive trajectory. Firing him after one blip in that trajectory tells the next coach that there might not be much room for error -- a tough sell if you're coming somewhere where it is traditionally hard to win.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Paper Evaluates Cormier Firing
04-19-16 03:44 PM - Post#206334
In response to SomeGuy
I found the players' arguments that he was weak at game strategy ridiculous.
However, the fact that everyone appears to have disliked him will make it hard to hold onto a job.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Dartmouth Paper Evaluates Cormier Firing
04-19-16 04:34 PM - Post#206336
In response to palestra38
I suppose a buy-in issue on game strategy does reflect on the coach. It doesn't matter if you are right if the players don't believe it.
That said, as with some of the comments about Kyle Smith that were made on the board allegedly coming from players, I think that these types of comments reflect poorly on the players as well. A good coach gets buy-in, but good players should buy in regardless. If you are inclined to think the coach is messing you up, you probably should be looking in the mirror, too.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Dartmouth Paper Evaluates Cormier Firing
04-19-16 04:52 PM - Post#206338
In response to SomeGuy
I agree....it is clear he was not well liked. And the fact that the AD wanted his own guy sealed his fate.
Let's see if the AD can get anyone better.
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hoopla
Masters Student
Posts: 486
Age: 50
Reg: 08-28-12
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04-19-16 05:08 PM - Post#206340
In response to palestra38
There were 2 players quoted. One anonymous; the other Brandon McDonnell. Neither appears to have liked Cormier--especially the "anonymous" character.
The anonymous guy stated that "95-97%" of his teammates had a negative experience with Cormier. First of all, not sure its objective coming from a guy who clearly has an axe to grind. (Plus I think it is safe to say that I had at least one negative experience with my coaches through college--and, coincidentally, I was especially prone to negative experiences when I was riding pine.) As a Columbia poster said about Smith not being liked by his team, I too didn't really like most of my coaches til after I had graduated (a.k.a. when they were no longer yelling at me).
Cormier is tough and blunt (perhaps to a fault), and that doesn't work for everyone all the time.
The other thing that was portrayed as negative about Cormier in this article was that he repeatedly told the team they are not good enough as individuals to win--they can only win with the sum of their parts etc. No offense to my guys in Green, but Cormier was right to say this in my mind. Boudreaux is the only real bonafide star.
Hopefully we hire a new coach soon so we don't miss out on too much recruiting. Really hoping for good news on Sistare.
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hoopla
Masters Student
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Age: 50
Reg: 08-28-12
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04-19-16 05:17 PM - Post#206341
In response to hoopla
Agreed P38. At the end of the day, let's see who we can bring in.
Despite the fact that the root of this decision was the relationship between Cormier and Sheehy (as reported by mrjames), I'm sure it was a hard decision for Sheehy.
After all, now the onus is on Sheehy.
We should be good next year--top 4 or bust.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4919
Reg: 02-04-06
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04-19-16 10:18 PM - Post#206349
In response to hoopla
There were two possibly substantive critiques of Cormier in the article. First is New School/Old School, he was too blunt and negative for today's player, yada, yada--the same kind of thing that pushed Carril out of college coaching. Second was more interesting--the suggestion that Cormier had a "fixed orientation" toward player capabilities, pigeonholing them, limiting what they were allowed to do, and not developing them individually or accepting when they did improve. The AD and the players both perceived that dynamic, which makes me wonder whether all those years of NBA scouting had made Cormier skeptical about player improvement. I never paid enough attention to his team to have an opinion about whether they improved over their careers.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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04-20-16 10:09 AM - Post#206365
In response to SRP
I'm curious how different the "pigeonholing" and player improvement really was from anywhere else. Every coach is going to identify certain players for certain roles, so whether this was a problem is a question of degree and again player buy-in (again, even if Cormier was right in his evaluations and how he used certain players, in a perfect world the players will buy in to their roles rather than see themselves as pigeonholed or otherwise limited).
As for whether guys improved, it seems like the results are mixed. Johnson and Cameron Smith seemed to improve markedly from first year to second. Tyler Melville sticks out as a kid who got much better with Cormier. Boehm, Maldunas, and Mitola came in as strong players and seemed to make improvements in certain areas, though maybe the improvement was more incremental than one would like to see. A lot of the big group of graduating seniors did seem to stay fairly similar in performance and role through their Dartmouth careers.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4919
Reg: 02-04-06
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04-21-16 06:34 PM - Post#206451
In response to SomeGuy
I liked Boehm. I remember one TV announcer saying that Cormier had never been able to get him to be as offensively aggressive as he wanted, which would not fit into "pigeonholing" but perhaps other issues.
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ahg46
Freshman
Posts: 11
Age: 77
Reg: 10-06-15
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Dartmouth Paper Evaluates Cormier Firing
05-02-16 09:05 AM - Post#206703
In response to hoopla
There were 2 players quoted. One anonymous; the other Brandon McDonnell. Neither appears to have liked Cormier--especially the "anonymous" character.
The anonymous guy stated that "95-97%" of his teammates had a negative experience with Cormier. First of all, not sure its objective coming from a guy who clearly has an axe to grind. (Plus I think it is safe to say that I had at least one negative experience with my coaches through college--and, coincidentally, I was especially prone to negative experiences when I was riding pine.) As a Columbia poster said about Smith not being liked by his team, I too didn't really like most of my coaches til after I had graduated (a.k.a. when they were no longer yelling at me).
Cormier is tough and blunt (perhaps to a fault), and that doesn't work for everyone all the time.
The other thing that was portrayed as negative about Cormier in this article was that he repeatedly told the team they are not good enough as individuals to win--they can only win with the sum of their parts etc. No offense to my guys in Green, but Cormier was right to say this in my mind. Boudreaux is the only real bonafide star.
Hopefully we hire a new coach soon so we don't miss out on too much recruiting. Really hoping for good news on Sistare.
His style seems dated with today's kids. if I am a young man today or even a parent of one, I certainly wouldn't want to send my kid to an Ivy school paying full tuition for him or her to have a bad experience because of an outdated coach or coaching philosophy. This may not be the view of many but to put down 60-70k a year for your kid to hate the experience seems like a waste of good hard earned money. In your statement about the 1 student who said 90+ % of the team had a bad experience with the coach, while not substantiated by any other source, still speaks volumes. Especially in today's world where there is so much social media and blogs and so forth that students being recruited by such a regime might think more then twice about his decision to attend Dartmouth. If this truly is the case then I have to think Sheehy is doing the prudent thing in starting with a younger more attuned coaching style to today's student/athletes.
Edited by ahg46 on 05-02-16 09:06 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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hoopla
Masters Student
Posts: 486
Age: 50
Reg: 08-28-12
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Dartmouth Paper Evaluates Cormier Firing
05-02-16 12:02 PM - Post#206706
In response to ahg46
Couldn't disagree more that this move was the "prudent thing" but I am right there with you in hoping this works out.
Regarding the high tuition of Dartmouth... That's not relevant at all. Unless McLaughlin is ready to get walked all over and be a yes man out of the gates, certain kids and parents will not like him either. If everyone--including those who ride pine like him--that probably won't be sustainable IMO.
The fact that you and perhaps others think the tuition paid by these student athletes' parents is relevant to this discussion is a reflection of how overbearing parents are these days. Let the kids grow up and face adversity. Otherwise they're in trouble when they hit the real world. When I played in college (when it was going well or when I was sitting) it was between me and the coach. I wasn't a huge fan of my coach and we all sort of had issues with him, but he was a good coach.
There was a clear updraft out of the D1 cellar over the last 6 years. Dartmouth was literally the second to worst ranked D1 program in the nation and they climbed about 200 spots under Cormier. The entire team almost quit before Cormier arrived.
Anyway, at this point let's focus on the future, which I still believe is bright. McLaughlin seems like a good get who can continue to build up this program.
Edited by hoopla on 05-02-16 12:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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ahg46
Freshman
Posts: 11
Age: 77
Reg: 10-06-15
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05-02-16 12:47 PM - Post#206707
In response to hoopla
Hoopla- i'm not sure what years you played basketball, but, the choices today are not similar even 15 years ago. There are some terrific institutions today providing a great education that are free.Today at least at the Ivy level costs are much higher today then yesteryear as tuition inflation is maybe triple every year to real inflation. It is not even compatible financially then and now. All I am saying is If a student athlete today has choices and one of them is significantly higher then the other and the education is comparable, having and old school coach with old school philosophies and paying a premium to go there is going to be a less desirable option. With today's social media and you have a 95% rate of players who hated their experience it will be an even more difficult task to recruit. In Cormier's first few years at the helm it was at least easy to say to a student that he will get minutes and may even start and that has appeal, now you have 2 rookies of the year and a few others that deserve spots it becomes even more difficult especially if you cannot relate to the student athletes today.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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05-02-16 02:02 PM - Post#206708
In response to ahg46
On one hand, I am a big fan of some of the new school coaches who take a more positive approach to relating to the kids. As a Penn fan, I like the transformation that i think Steve Donahue has made from when he was an assistant at Penn and starting out at Cornell to where he is now in approach.
However, in Cormier's case at Dartmouth particularly, I think there is a real question as to whether the firing gets you where you want to go (or even keeps you where you are). Every head basketball coach has strengths and weaknesses. Whatever rough edges Cormier may have, he took a perrenial bottom dweller and made it competitive in a short period of time. The fact that he had some measure of comparative success where so many others have failed seems to suggest that his approach worked.
I also think hoopla's point about situation is a fair one, and one that may not be answered as easily as you seem to think. Sometimes, a coach who relates well to the players will actually have more trouble with the kids who don't play. Sometimes, the explanation that "coach is a $%#&" is easier to deal with than "coach is a cool supportive guy whose got my back but doesn't think i'm good enough to see the floor until senior year."
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hoopla
Masters Student
Posts: 486
Age: 50
Reg: 08-28-12
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05-02-16 02:08 PM - Post#206709
In response to ahg46
I disagreed with your initial post. And I'm not really following this most recent one. If I'm reading it right, I definitely disagree with this one as well.
I think with this post you are trying to say that Cormier had to go for recruiting reasons?
(Although I'm not 100% sure because you also point out that he brought in the last two ROYs and more talent.)
The last 2 classes have been good and I think this incoming one is good too (great if we get Sistare).
Anyway, Cormier's gone and now that we have what appears to be a good new hire coming in I see no reason to praise or critique Sheehy's decision until we see what happens next year and beyond.
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