Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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It's trees stupid!
02-11-19 04:00 PM - Post#275914
In response to PennFan10
I don't think you're really arguing against me, SG, and I'm probably willing to stipulate to what you're saying but on the other hand, I don't recall the narrative of 0-2, 1-3 teams throwing everything they had at the next conference game for the Ivies when there was no tournament. I mean, besides if it was a presumptive top 3 team. We faced, and then were on the bad side in the last decade, many teams in that situation who were expected to finish 6th-8th. I don't think the intensity was markedly different. It's as if teams accepted their fate. Yeah a loss would likely take them out of title contention but they were out of title contention after the first game and they knew it.
P38, you rightly point out that it's a bit different when you're presumptive top 2 and fighting it out for a top seed vs. a championship. But I still had a blast last year and not for a minute did I think "no big deal if we lose to Dartmouth".
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-11-19 04:16 PM - Post#275917
In response to PennFan10
He probably would have missed if it meant more!
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: It's trees stupid!
02-11-19 04:17 PM - Post#275918
In response to Jeff2sf
Of course, I had a blast too---the difference is that I never felt anxious that if we blew a game, it was catastrophic. I remember final weekends in the old system tied with Princeton and worried about a loss.
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Jeff2sf
Postdoc
Posts: 4466
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-11-19 04:38 PM - Post#275925
In response to palestra38
you're not the target since you pre-pay for your tix anyway but did you skip any games in the tail end of the year because they didn't matter?
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westphillywarrior
Sophomore
Posts: 196
Age: 43
Reg: 01-08-11
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02-11-19 04:43 PM - Post#275926
In response to palestra38
I also have to admit that I thought I would miss those 14 game tournaments. What a war those used to be.
Now I understand, that as many of the fans get older, how it is more fun, and less stressful, to have four winners instead of just one.
As one poster recently put it, a league that used to be special has just become....meh.
On a serious note, I do enjoy those end of season debates on the fourth place tiebreakers.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32831
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-11-19 04:46 PM - Post#275928
In response to Jeff2sf
Only in Jerome's last year. I couldn't take it anymore.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23394
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-11-19 05:31 PM - Post#275940
In response to palestra38
If we can just win a few games, we should be able to shout,
"We're number 4! We're number 4!"
How exciting!
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-11-19 05:45 PM - Post#275944
In response to westphillywarrior
On a serious note, I do enjoy those end of season debates on the fourth place tiebreakers.
Said positions on said debates depending on the standing of one's team, of course, which could vary by week.
P38 came in loud and clear last year, though. Let's see if he holds the same position this year.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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02-11-19 05:52 PM - Post#275945
In response to Penndemonium
If it is to be fan interest over fairness, then why is the ILT being played in a 2,500 seat arena where many fans will not be able to get in - remember that there were almost 6,000 fans attending each day of last year's ILT and only a slightly smaller number the prior year. If it is to be a "big boy and girl" tournament, play it in a real arena. If it is felt that the Palestra (the only such arena in the league) gives Penn too much of an advantage, then spend a few shekels and RENT an arena. The (so far) requirement that it be an on campus arena is just a demonstration of IL cheapness - can't tell me that the schools don't have the money to do so. Let's use the greater TV income to rent a real arena - Fairfield and St John's (and maybe even Albany) come to mind as fairly centrally located for the league and much better size than any IL arena except the Palestra.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-11-19 06:25 PM - Post#275949
In response to SteveChop
I agree with you. A neutral decent stadium is the right way to go. When we played Princeton for a tiebreaker at Lafayette in Bowman's senior year, I thought it was a dumb location but at least it was fair.
If it is to be fan interest over fairness, then why is the ILT being played in a 2,500 seat arena where many fans will not be able to get in - remember that there were almost 6,000 fans attending each day of last year's ILT and only a slightly smaller number the prior year. If it is to be a "big boy and girl" tournament, play it in a real arena. If it is felt that the Palestra (the only such arena in the league) gives Penn too much of an advantage, then spend a few shekels and RENT an arena. The (so far) requirement that it be an on campus arena is just a demonstration of IL cheapness - can't tell me that the schools don't have the money to do so. Let's use the greater TV income to rent a real arena - Fairfield and St John's (and maybe even Albany) come to mind as fairly centrally located for the league and much better size than any IL arena except the Palestra.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-11-19 06:44 PM - Post#275952
In response to Penndemonium
The problem is the ILT doesn't exist for fairness or fan interest (including 4th place drama). It's for branding and TV rights. Showcasing the league's campuses (regardless of appropriate venue) and exposure through selection Sunday final for Men and Women is the stated goal. TV doesn't care how many people are there. They will make Yale look like a madhouse in March. Anyone have any idea how many people fit in Cameron Indoor vs the Dean Dome?
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
Posts: 4484
Loc: Princeton, New Jersey
Reg: 10-11-06
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02-11-19 06:53 PM - Post#275954
In response to 10Q
If we can just win a few games, we should be able to shout,
"We're number 4! We're number 4!"
How exciting!
10Q... We finish 4th and then go on to win the ILT... That sounds pretty exciting to me.
If this team can beat Nova and Miami, it's certainly reasonable to believe we can win a game or two (or dare I say, more) in the tourney. I'll be happy to chant "We're Number 4!! We're Number 4!!" if we lose in the Final Four!!
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LyleGold
PhD Student
Posts: 1712
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-11-19 07:06 PM - Post#275957
In response to Penndemonium
I agree with you. A neutral decent stadium is the right way to go. When we played Princeton for a tiebreaker at Lafayette in Bowman's senior year, I thought it was a dumb location but at least it was fair.
That game was at Lehigh. The playoff victory in '80, the loss in '81, and the victory in the year of the 3-way tie were all at Lafayette.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23394
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-11-19 08:22 PM - Post#275972
In response to Cvonvorys
First we have to get to the Ivy Final Four.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-11-19 09:21 PM - Post#275989
In response to penn nation
We have to win at least 3 out of the next 4 (but we have to beat Cornell, period). Otherwise we will probably be kvetching about the inane tiebreakers down the road, at best.
It's also the schedule. We played Princeton shorthanded and then had the next 4 on the road. Only the Cornell loss was unforgivable, as we should have crushed them in the first half. Losing to Yale on road on a Saturday is not surprising, although disappointing.
The real season starts Friday--we have to hold serve at home.
I think at least one of the Princeton games and the Yale game might very well have gone the other way if we'd had Betley. We're overly dependent on two freshmen right now. If one of them is banged up, or they're having struggling with the back-to-back weekend schedule, we have no margin for error. Betley's loss costs the team experience, poise and depth.
On a closely-related note, we're also feeling the effects of the fact that, at least to this point, last year's freshman class has been a bust. If at least one of those guys had become a reliable contributor, we'd have that much more quality depth.
Oh, well. Good class this year, and likely at least one or two good players will emerge next year as well. So the future is promising.
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SteveChop
PhD Student
Posts: 1154
Reg: 07-28-07
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02-12-19 11:21 AM - Post#276032
In response to PennFan10
Cameron (modeled on the Palestra and built one year later) seats between 8,000 and 9,000; the Dean Dome seats approximately 20,000. BUT the ACC Tournament is not held at Cameron so I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 11:36 AM - Post#276033
In response to SteveChop
The point is we see a lot of games on TV at those two places and I would bet no one knows (without looking it up) that Cameron is quite small relative to the Dean Dome. Picking Yale has nothing to do with appeasing fans or seating capacity. It has to do with the branding of the IL schools on TV.
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HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2692
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
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02-12-19 11:38 AM - Post#276034
In response to PennFan10
Next year at Lavietes!(?)
Branding?
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PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3585
Reg: 02-15-15
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02-12-19 11:40 AM - Post#276036
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
It wouldn't surprise me at all. I would bet Harvard and Princeton are the two choices for next year's ILT.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3777
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-12-19 11:44 AM - Post#276038
In response to PennFan10
Speaking of branding, I wonder of the league is doing any sort of brand tracking research? It would be interesting to see where awareness and perceptions of the brand stand pre- and post-tournament over the past couple of years, and what effect holding the tournament at Yale will have vs. holding it at the Palestra.
I suspect that, simply by asking this question, I'm giving the people who run the conference too much credit.
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