OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
|
12-23-20 08:03 PM - Post#318236
In response to penn nation
I'm sorry-- I missed the article and your post before my post. I think the risk to one college kid outweighs the benefits. They are not pros.
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3589
Reg: 02-15-15
|
12-23-20 08:08 PM - Post#318237
In response to OldBig5
So you somehow know that IL players haven't had Covid yet and all the other schools basketball players have had it? Hmmmmm. If you believe that I have an election fraud for you to investigate.
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21221
Reg: 12-02-04
|
12-23-20 08:34 PM - Post#318238
In response to PennFan10
Well, the Rockets and Thunder are postponed tonight.
I think the NBA is going to discover that trying to navigate a season without a bubble is going to be a far riskier proposition.
|
bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
|
12-23-20 08:49 PM - Post#318239
In response to penn nation
It certainly will a problem if people behave like James Harden going to a strip club without a mask. Hopefully, college BB players have a little more common sense but then again, Harden wants to get traded so he probably selflessly does not care.
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3589
Reg: 02-15-15
|
12-23-20 09:31 PM - Post#318241
In response to penn nation
Well, Clemson, Alabama and Notre Dame played 11 football games and the NFL has cancelled exactly zero games all season so what’s your point? You seem to love to highlight the one offs. How many college basketball games have been played vs cancelled? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32848
Reg: 11-21-04
|
12-23-20 09:43 PM - Post#318243
In response to PennFan10
OKC-Houston NBA opener cancelled tonight
|
penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21221
Reg: 12-02-04
|
12-23-20 10:06 PM - Post#318248
In response to palestra38
You're late to the party.
See my earlier post.
|
bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
|
12-24-20 12:46 PM - Post#318256
In response to PennFan10
Harvard's Sr. Isaiah Wingfield, all Ivy DB, announced his transfer to Wake Forest and he will be able to play 2 seasons. 247 captured his thoughts as to what it has been like to be an IL student athlete over the past year.
He understands why the IL decision was made although he found it difficult emotionally when he watched other schools playing as well as even watching kids playing football.
Sounds like he carefully thought through his decision and hopes to get a MBA at a very good WF Business School. WF Coach Clawson is thrilled to get him.
|
rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
|
12-25-20 06:19 PM - Post#318263
In response to bradley
Report: Duke Blue Devils end women's basketball season amid coronavirus concerns
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basket ball/sto...
- The Duke women's basketball team has ended its season amid the coronavirus pandemic, a person familiar with the situation told The Associated Press. The men's team planned to keep playing. -
- The Blue Devils are the first Power 5 school to have started this season and will not finish it because of the virus. The Ivy League opted out of playing winter sports in November before the basketball season started. A few other schools also decided not to play this year.
New coach Kara Lawson, who was hired in July, had said this month: "I don't think we should be playing right now. That's my opinion on it." That came a day after Duke men's coach Mike Krzyzewski questioned why college basketball was being played in the midst of the pandemic. -
|
rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
|
This proves that Covid can be managed at Universities
12-29-20 09:34 PM - Post#318317
In response to rbg
SMU Mustangs opt out of the remainder of women's basketball season
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basket ball/sto...
- The SMU women's basketball team has decided not to play the remainder of its 2020-21 season, with players opting out because of health and safety concerns surrounding COVID-19.
The school said in a statement that while the players agreed all possible steps and precautions had been taken to keep them healthy and safe, they decided "that the totality of the circumstances was resulting in an in-season experience that they did not wish to prolong.''
Athletic director Rick Hart said it was a difficult decision for the players to make and that the school supported them. -
Edited by rbg on 12-29-20 09:37 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
|
rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
|
12-29-20 09:37 PM - Post#318318
In response to rbg
Sports Illustrated
It Took a Pandemic to See the Distorted State of College Sports
https://www.si.com/college/2020/12/29/gl obal-pande...
- The Ivy League was the first conference to cancel its men’s and women’s basketball tournaments, in March, and it has consistently canceled and postponed events ever since. In November, the conference axed its winter-sports season and vowed not to stage any events until at least the end of February. These decisions have been portrayed as proof that the Ivy League is taking the pandemic seriously, or confirmation that sports aren’t important to the Ivies. The thinking behind the decision, though, was simpler and far more revealing. In the Ivy League, sports—from football to fencing—are student activities, subject to the same rules and regulations as any other student activity. Traveling from campus to campus to play sports was incompatible with COVID-19 restrictions.
“While the decision was clear, it’s still painful,†says Ivy League executive director Robin Harris. “We spent countless hours working with our athletic directors and coaches since March—looking at schedules, looking at protocols, looking at ways we can conduct athletic competition. That included looking at different mitigation strategies for travel. We spent an inordinate amount of time [and presented] presidents with concepts and frameworks. They just felt like that would be inconsistent with campus policies. It was not a difficult decision.†-
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32848
Reg: 11-21-04
|
12-29-20 09:56 PM - Post#318320
In response to rbg
It's what I thought all along---it's the bogus "fairness" argument. We have a fiction that we treat athletes just like all other students so we can't do what is necessary during a pandemic (a bubble) to allow them to play a season.
It easily could have been done, and it will hurt our league for a number of years, if not longer. We were on a track to competing for Power Conference players. They know we're not serious about sports now.
|
HARVARDDADGRAD
Postdoc
Posts: 2697
Loc: New Jersey
Reg: 01-21-14
|
12-29-20 11:51 PM - Post#318322
In response to palestra38
The fact that things are not 100% fair doesn’t mean that we should abandon fairness altogether.
As I’ve already suggested, efforts to plan as safe a season as possible (e.g., a bubble) were doomed. Not a priority under these circumstances.
This neither concerns or disappoints me.
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3589
Reg: 02-15-15
|
12-30-20 01:06 AM - Post#318324
In response to HARVARDDADGRAD
It's a cop out. The easy path. It does not demonstrate concern, only convenience. I agree the harm will likely be long lasting on our league.
|
palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32848
Reg: 11-21-04
|
12-30-20 06:11 AM - Post#318326
In response to PennFan10
We Ivies live with a fiction---that our "student-athletes" are treated no differently from the rest of the student body. Thus we have an "AI" (of course, not part of the original Ivy agreement, but imposed to create 'fairness') to provide an objective admissions floor, but non-athletes have no such floor. We prohibit athletic scholarships but have such generous financial aid (some much better than others--so much for 'fairness') that recruitment can be tailored to provide de facto scholarships for the best players. We provide the athletes with individualized academic help and a built in network of job opportunities that the non-athlete simply does not have handed to him/her.
So the explanation that we cannot have a basketball season because we must treat student athletes like all other students doesn't wash. But for me, the key is that in a bubble, we could have treated them as we do all others, who similarly must take their classes virtually. We could have sent all the men's and women's basketball and hockey teams to Cornell, housed them in dorms (no students were there) and over a 6 week period, played a full round robin while they were taking classes (although most of the time would have been intersession). And the argument that sending them to a distant location during intersession would be treating them differently from all other students is weak, since athletes in winter sports regularly compete during intersession while others are on vacation.
The explanations all fall short. We could have shown all the other conferences how to compete safely.
|
bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
|
12-30-20 09:52 AM - Post#318327
In response to palestra38
Reality Check: Over the past 4 days, 80% of NCAAM and 70% of NCAAW games have been played even after the spike in COVID numbers. Some have argued since the beginning of the season that the season would be shutdown "shortly" and it still might be. Games are being played in collegiate and professional sports with bumps along the way.
Shutdown advocates advocate theoretical responses as to what the IL is the only conference in the US that it has it correct.
Advocates for starting to play support strict protocols and shut it down if facts dictate such a response. Aiken, Towns, and others play while their former teammates do not -- logical??? I hope that Knight and Schwiegger enjoy Loyola next year.
When it comes to sports, IL administration has a track record especially relating to BB. Time will tell as to who had it right or wrong or somewhere in between.
|
PennFan10
Postdoc
Posts: 3589
Reg: 02-15-15
|
12-30-20 11:02 AM - Post#318328
In response to bradley
P38: there is no "argument" against the bubble. It simply was never considered.
Bradley: "Time" will not tell who was right or wrong. A broken clock is right 2x a day. The Ivy league didn't lead here and any narrative that they had it "right" even if everyone shuts down later (they won't) is coincidental, not discerning. They didn't care to compete in athletics because it was the easiest and most convenient decision, not because all the smart scientists , administrators and coaches got in a room and figured out it wasn't safe. If that had happened, then kudos may be in order. That didn't happen here and every other conference did the work the IL didn't care to do. Sad times for the athletes.
|
bradley
PhD Student
Posts: 1842
Age: 74
Reg: 01-15-16
|
12-30-20 11:20 AM - Post#318329
In response to PennFan10
I agree that the decision was incorrect not to even try but if the BB season is ultimately cancelled, the argument will be that the advocates to cancel the season were simply ahead of the curve. In fairness, the cancellation of the IL Tournament in March was ahead of the curve although everyone cancelled within a week of the IL decision.
It kind of reminds me what is going on in certain parts of the country as to the lockdown approach vs. a different approach but it is what it is.
|
mrjames
Professor
Posts: 6062
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
|
12-30-20 11:25 AM - Post#318330
In response to PennFan10
While I don't really know what "right" means here (it would seem to be relative depending on who is making the decision), a lot of the arguments presented above are either entirely wrong or somewhat misleading.
What we know is that March Madness has to happen this year from a monetary perspective. What we also know is that prominent coaches like Coach K, Pitino, Capel have said they don't think they should be playing. And finally what almost everyone on these boards agrees on is that traveling around the Northeast right now is a non-starter (folks here and there might disagree, but seems like the overwhelming majority understands the risks there are not within an acceptable range for this league).
So, what that leaves is the bubble. I don't know to what level a bubble was discussed, if seriously at all, at the league office. Regardless of process, I'm not at all surprised by the outcome of dismissing it. It would either need to be a semi-permeable bubble that would leave lots of potential risks or a completely closed bubble that would be a logistical nightmare and practical impossibility.
It's common practice to blame the presidents, and frankly, it's quite fun. But the blame being thrown around here is wildly off base, sadly.
|
rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
|
12-30-20 12:28 PM - Post#318331
In response to mrjames
For those interested, here are several posts I placed with quotes from Robin Harris about the thought process behind the league's decision.
11-12-20 08:38 PM - Post#316635
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/ _/id/303...
- "We are heartbroken to be here again," Harris said. "It's based on the current trends of the virus and rates and the impact that has on our campus policies that are going to continue to restrict travel, group gathering sizes, visitors to campus. Athletics is important to all of our schools, to our presidents. All aspects of campuses are being asked to make sacrifices and change the way they operate, and unfortunately that has extended into athletics as well."
Harris said the league's coaches and athletic directors came up with alternative options on how to conduct a season, including eliminating overnight stays and changing the way they handle meals on the road. While those options would have mitigated the risk to a degree, it wasn't enough.
A bubble for the conference was never a legitimate consideration, Harris said. -
- While the Ivy League was the first domino to fall in March, it is unlikely that every conference in the country will follow the league's decision this time around.
"This decision is about what's right and responsible for the Ivy League based on current trends and our campus policies, and our presidents prioritizing health and safety of student-athletes, coaches and the greater campus communities," Harris said. "Others are going to have to make the best decisions for their schools and conferences. It's hard to predict the future. The trends are not good."
Harris said the Ivy League has not had discussions with the NCAA on whether it will still receive an NCAA tournament share or any money from the NCAA tournament. The league has not changed its policies on allowing graduate students to play sports, despite the NCAA granting every winter athlete a free year this season. -
11-30-20 01:33 PM - Post#317487
The Executive Director did not mention fairness when interviewed by ESPN after the announcement. She was not asked about having a short season bubble between the fall & spring semesters and did not offer that information on her own.
11-15-20 02:26 PM - Post#316749
Freddie Coleman of ESPN interviewed Robin Harris (9 minutes long) about the cancelled season.
https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/ESP1407137613? sel...
When asked about a bubble (4 minutes mark), Harris said that a season long bubble was not feasible since the student athletes live and interact with other students.
She did not expand on that answer or mention anything regarding cost, logistics or fairness with the other winter sports.
After her short bubble answer, she said they talked about travel for a team to go to another Ivy school on a charter bus creating a 'modified travel bubble'. With schools restricting travel for everyone, it was also determined not to be feasible.
12-29-20 08:37 PM - Post#318318
Sports Illustrated
It Took a Pandemic to See the Distorted State of College Sports
https://www.si.com/college/2020/12/29/gl obal-pande...
- The Ivy League was the first conference to cancel its men’s and women’s basketball tournaments, in March, and it has consistently canceled and postponed events ever since. In November, the conference axed its winter-sports season and vowed not to stage any events until at least the end of February. These decisions have been portrayed as proof that the Ivy League is taking the pandemic seriously, or confirmation that sports aren’t important to the Ivies. The thinking behind the decision, though, was simpler and far more revealing. In the Ivy League, sports—from football to fencing—are student activities, subject to the same rules and regulations as any other student activity. Traveling from campus to campus to play sports was incompatible with COVID-19 restrictions.
“While the decision was clear, it’s still painful,†says Ivy League executive director Robin Harris. “We spent countless hours working with our athletic directors and coaches since March—looking at schedules, looking at protocols, looking at ways we can conduct athletic competition. That included looking at different mitigation strategies for travel. We spent an inordinate amount of time [and presented] presidents with concepts and frameworks. They just felt like that would be inconsistent with campus policies. It was not a difficult decision.†-
|
