CM
Masters Student
Posts: 429
Reg: 10-11-18
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04-29-23 06:18 AM - Post#356002
In response to JDP
While the potential for scholarships in the IL (distant, I think) will make the League more competitive, I think you are forgetting how hard the IL schools are to get into in the first place, never mind the workload once admitted. Yes, the pool of potential student athletes will expand once tuition money is not a hurdle, but it will remain restricted due to the academic rigor. And Dartmouth, perhaps more than any other Ivy, is well know for having the least helpful admissions department when it comes to recruited athletes.
Dartmouth WBB could hope to become a .500 IL program within 6 years, given a skilled recruiting coaching staff and some luck. But it is so far behind at the moment that aiming for more seems more fantasy than reality.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-29-23 12:11 PM - Post#356023
In response to CM
Philosophically, in enticing students to apply and matriculate, I believe the financial cost of an Ivy is currently the first order constraint – admissions is second order. Two thoughts why:
Scholarships / merit aid may not increase the admittable overall pool or the admittable student-athlete applicant pool: All the top applicants already apply to an Ivy. But currently how many admitted students ultimately select an alternative university because of economic reasons? As financial support increases, that number approaches zero. The yield rate for Ivy teams to their top admitted/offered recruits also likely increases as the cost of attendance approaches zero, their cost at any non Ivy alternative D1 university.
Scholarships may increase the admittable overall and student-athlete applicant pool: There are likely some potential admissible applicants that self-select against an Ivy because the perceived the cost will be too great or don’t want to fill out the financial aid package to get a read. No idea on the size of the cohort, but it’s nonzero. Some potential admissible student athletes know the Ivies do not offer scholarships and there are alterative high academic D1 institutions that do, so they do not even engage with an Ivy. Scholarships eliminates this reason.
I believe this effect is evident currently within the Ivies, as each school has a different, and from top to bottom – likely meaningfully relatively different, need-based aid amount for the same student (play around with the financial aid formulas on the school’s websites). All the Ivy student-athletes qualified under the AI and want to undertake the course work. But Ivy Titles are not 12.5% per school – nor is the distribution of appearances in Ivy Madness or NCAA bids. An interesting study would be to see the impact of the deregulation of the Ivy Financial Aid policy in the 1990s to success of a school’s athletic teams, pre and post deregulation. Have the Ivies with the better financial aid packages gone further in NCAA championships across all sports post deregulation than pre?
When I was watching the women’s final 4, the announcers made the comment that the Virginia Tech team had a 3.7 GPA. Catlin Clark is an Academic All-American. I have conviction that some of the Academic All-Americans on the list below would end up at Ivies.
https://academicallameric a.com/news/2023/3/14/2022...
As it is, the Ivies should have had multiple bids last year to the women’s tournament, and given the talent across the league, I believe the Ivies will have four top 100 teams next season. If scholarships allowed each team to add an additional top 150 player every other recruiting class or an additional key transfer, that would make a meaningful difference in level of play when most teams play 7-8 key players per game. And given the high starting level, that would mean meaningful more national success.
Scholarships would help level the playing field across the Ivies and vs. D1
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 429
Reg: 10-11-18
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04-29-23 01:01 PM - Post#356028
In response to JDP
Pretty much everything you write is on point. But, and I am coming at this from first hand experience in the process, Dartmouth loses potential student-athletes because it is known to have a relatively uncooperative admissions department (and this is for all sports, not just basketball). I know more than a few kids who didn't even bother looking at Dartmouth and went to other Ivys because the reputation of admissions is so poor in the recruiting world(not to mention Hanlon's edict on cutting down the number of recruited athletes in the student body).
Relative to the entire pool, there are a small number of potential D1 basketball players who can also qualify for admissions at an Ivy - as you say, some of them currently don't even look at Ivys because of the lack of scholarships. So, yes, the number of potential Ivy players would increase if the Ivy athletic scholarships come to pass. But many IL basketball programs right now resemble D3 more than D1 in ways other than just scholarships, and all this matters when trying to convince a kid to come to Dartmouth over Northwestern or Stanford or Duke. Scholarships are a start, but only part of the story.
Also, fwiw, schools like Va Tech and Iowa have curriculum specifically tailored for their athletes (not to mention comprehensive systems of academic support), not something any Ivy athlete could ever expect.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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04-29-23 03:54 PM - Post#356035
In response to CM
I did not realize the magnitude of the admissions issue at Dartmouth. Clearly each school should address their unique constraints from most binding.
I also agree turning on scholarships will have not immediately have all the Stanford players transfer to Ivies or even make Wharton the #1 transfer choice for finance major Hailey Van Lith. The elite players want to play against top competition and have tournament success. The Ivies would have to grow into that level of conference, but on the women’s side, the conference is close, top 10.
I acknowledge your point on there is an academic constraint limiting who teams may recruit. But, the Big Green aside, I feel the financial cost is greater than the academic. One can look at the recruits who post that they were offered by an Ivy and then go Power 5 or top Mid Major and see the talent drain due to economics. The top Ivy teams routinely attract top 100 women's players and those student athlete graduate and are successful. Princeton has attracted three WNBA draft picks to undertake thier course work and thesis. I believe the pool of admissible student that are top to elite athletes is larger than you may believe (we would need to calibrate our measures) and scholarships would see more elite student athletes choose to attend an Ivy.
But your point on some schools operating more like DIII schools is an important point. Institutional support is key. Not just admissions but from the president to provost to alumni to students. The more all constituencies are working together, the greater the potential for high level success. A coach who operates without consistent support, has a lower likelihood to build a consistently completive team. This institutional reality will shape who applies for the Dartmouth or any Ivy position.
Columbia would have made the tournament if the NET scores of the rest of the league were just slightly higher – as we saw close games (10 point winning margin or less) vs. low NET league teams will drop your NET rating when your NET ranking is in the 40s. And to the extent a member institution is actively instituting frictions to the athletic department that are detrimental to the overall league success, that member institution and the league should be intellectually honest and ask if that member institution’s vision remains likeminded to the other institutions. The Ivy League label is an athletic designation, not an academic designation.
Ivy Women’s Basketball could be an internal catalyst for change. Princeton women’s basketball has had phenomenal league success over the past decade. And no doubt they want to replicate their Field Hockey and Lacrosse national successes. And while recently they have won the opening round game, is their basketball ceiling constrained by the League’s DI – DIII effective bifurcation – either by what recruits will consider Princeton or how high the NCAA will seed the Tigers – what would it take for Princeton to host an opening round game, and can that be done without the Tigers absorbing more recruiting competition and having all Ivy teams being more competitive nationally?.
Scholarships could also be a catalyst for change. If the lawsuit settles with scholarships, will the DIII leaning schools want to remain and offer scholarships? Or could the settlement cause a reconstitution of the athletic conference?
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
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Any Whispers on New Women's Coach?
05-05-23 02:30 PM - Post#356164
In response to JDP
No coaching updates that I've seen.
Fwiw, Belle Koclanes left on 2/24/21 and Adrienne Shibles was hired on 5/3/21. I believe Dartmouth was the last, or one of the last, to hire a new coach that year.
Shibles left on 4/17/23 and there isn't a new coach in place. According to WBB Blog, there have been 47 jobs filled and only 2 openings remain.
Miami (OH), the only other opening, happened suddenly last week, after the school found out the coach had an inappropraite relationship with one of her players.
Edited by rbg on 05-05-23 02:30 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Greenhorn
Senior
Posts: 321
Reg: 11-24-04
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05-05-23 06:37 PM - Post#356170
In response to rbg
Anyone know if there are/were even recruits for next season? I'm sure they're just thrilled about the uncertainty. And having no coach during summer evals is going to do wonders for the class after next.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 429
Reg: 10-11-18
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05-06-23 06:49 AM - Post#356172
In response to Greenhorn
Yes, Dartmouth has an incoming class of four freshmen - all of whom committed last summer, or earlier.
Considering two of this year's freshmen are in the transfer portal and, as you say, there's no coach to do any recruiting right now, Dartmouth WBB seems committed to some rough days ahead.
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Greenhorn
Senior
Posts: 321
Reg: 11-24-04
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05-06-23 11:39 PM - Post#356185
In response to CM
Sarah Assante, an assistant under Shibles, has found a new home. She'll be an assistant next year at Bryant. That obviously means she's not minding the store while Dartmouth searches for someone new. I hope someone is.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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05-07-23 12:59 PM - Post#356188
In response to Greenhorn
Anyone know if there are/were even recruits for next season? I'm sure they're just thrilled about the uncertainty. And having no coach during summer evals is going to do wonders for the class after next.
Among the four incoming recruits, only one had another D-1 offer (from NJIT).
So I seriously doubt any of them are going anywhere...
Maybe Shibles and her staff had bigger targets for next season's class. But I doubt it.
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JDP
Masters Student
Posts: 577
Reg: 11-23-04
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05-07-23 03:16 PM - Post#356189
In response to Go Green
Clarice Borges 2024 / Bay state jags / Dexter Southfield MA committed on 27 July 22
https://twitter.com/lwproductions4/status /16149994...
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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05-08-23 06:24 AM - Post#356194
In response to JDP
She hadn't started her junior year at the time she was offered (and apparently accepted immediately) from Dartmouth.
She visited a few of Dartmouth's competitors. But it does not appear that any of them offered her.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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05-08-23 07:05 AM - Post#356195
In response to Go Green
Should also mention that unlike the 2023 recruits (who aren't going anywhere), Borges probably has enough time to re-open her recruiting status if she decides that Dartmouth's new coach (whoever that may be) is a bad fit for her.
And I suppose the sentiment will apply likewise with the new coach...
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 429
Reg: 10-11-18
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05-08-23 08:38 AM - Post#356196
In response to Go Green
If true, this is an absurd statement on how unprepared the outgoing coaches were. Essentially fielding a D3 roster trying to compete against the likes of Columbia and Princeton. Whoever takes this job better demand a long runway to show success, because with Shibles recruiting classes in place the ability to improve would seem very limited.
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Any Whispers on New Women's Coach?
05-08-23 08:49 AM - Post#356197
In response to CM
If true, this is an absurd statement on how unprepared the outgoing coaches were. Essentially fielding a D3 roster trying to compete against the likes of Columbia and Princeton.
Complete speculation on my part, but I do think that Shibles was given an ultimatum by Harrity that Shibles could not meet and/or live with.
If a team has a bad year, a saving grace usually takes the form of hope for the future. "Yeah, we finished last. But we've got these great players coming, so better days are coming soon." Or something to that effect.
I suspect Harrity looked at Shibles' incoming recruits and was very unimpressed. He probably told her to make changes to her staff or otherwise figure out some way to bring in higher caliber players. And Shibles elected to resign...
It's a mess. Yes- the new person will be given a long runway. But it would be beneficial for all involved if we showed immediate improvements in recruiting.
Edited by Go Green on 05-08-23 09:00 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 429
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: Any Whispers on New Women's Coach?
05-08-23 11:50 AM - Post#356199
In response to Go Green
A huge issue with trying to improve the level of recruits is with two awful seasons in the books and some weaker recruiting classes already on campus any top high school player is going to see themselves as a the ground floor of a major rebuild. It's not an impossible sell, look how well the Brown women did this year with mostly freshmen and sophomores, but, man, it is a not easy, either. Massive kudos to brown coaches for what they pulled off this year, they are for sure on the radar as a spoiler next year.
But, as you say, you have to start somewhere, it's just that this somewhere appears deep in the basement.
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rbg
Postdoc
Posts: 3059
Reg: 10-20-14
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Any Whispers on New Women's Coach?
05-09-23 09:04 PM - Post#356214
In response to CM
Miami (OH) hired Indiana’s associate head coach as its new head coach. Looks like Dartmouth has the last open head coaching spot on this year’s carousel.
Edited by rbg on 05-09-23 09:04 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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flinder
Freshman
Posts: 73
Age: 45
Reg: 11-16-16
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Re: Any Whispers on New Women's Coach?
05-10-23 02:44 PM - Post#356231
In response to rbg
That's one way to make it the most attractive head coaching job in all of women's college basketball...
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Go Green
PhD Student
Posts: 1149
Age: 52
Reg: 04-22-10
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Re: Any Whispers on New Women's Coach?
05-10-23 03:02 PM - Post#356233
In response to flinder
That's one way to make it the most attractive head coaching job in all of women's college basketball...
Indeed! I don't think we're going to go down to our third or fourth choice this time.
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Greenhorn
Senior
Posts: 321
Reg: 11-24-04
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05-10-23 11:21 PM - Post#356252
In response to Go Green
Dartmouth just canceled its recruit camp. They don't have anyone to run it. Very sad. Just digging a bigger and bigger hole for this once proud program.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 429
Reg: 10-11-18
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05-11-23 06:22 AM - Post#356255
In response to Greenhorn
The depths to which this program has fallen are really sad. They fail to achieve what one would call the bare minimum to be considered a D1 program.
As an example, Shibles hiring was handled so badly that her first year the WBB players received almost zero Nike team gear, as is normal for any college basketball team. Might not seem like a big deal but if you come to Dartmouth and the coaching staff cannot even provide the stuff it gets FOR FREE from Nike, then what else are they screwing up?
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