Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-24-23 02:39 AM - Post#359630
Starting a game thread.
Happy Thanksgiving, all!
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OldBig5
Masters Student
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Age: 66
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11-24-23 07:55 AM - Post#359634
In response to Penndemonium
Thanks, good reminder,
Villanova beat #14 UNC so our win over the Cats looks even better. I will just ignore the UMES loss. 
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8268
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Lafayette
11-24-23 10:14 AM - Post#359635
In response to OldBig5
Penn is a 12.5 point favorite for what it is worth.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-24-23 03:43 PM - Post#359639
In response to Streamers
ESPN has them as 89% likelihood to win.
It's too bad MJ is not getting a good run at Head Coach, although it's hard to say what's right without knowing the circumstances of his dismissal.
I think the probabilities are overstated, given that we just lost to #351 (out of 362 possible teams) Maryland Eastern Shore. Lafayette is #328, and we are #181. I didn't watch the game, but clearly we can play both up and down to our competition.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
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11-24-23 05:34 PM - Post#359641
In response to Penndemonium
So far, home and away makes a big difference for us.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-24-23 06:19 PM - Post#359644
In response to SomeGuy
Spinoso continues to frustrate with poor play at both ends, and that includes the coaches—TV had a close up shot of a red-faced Nat Graham up in Nick’s grill screaming as they came into huddle at the last TV timeout of half.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-24-23 06:20 PM - Post#359645
In response to SomeGuy
I'm watching with a bit of delay, but I LOVED watching Gerhart's rebound with about 15:10 left in the first half. The team should watch his rebounding work again and again.
This is my first time seeing Sam Brown in action. It's very early so far, but I like how he seems very purposeful with his possessions. He tests whether he has an approach, and moves the ball quickly to the right player if not. There is no pause or hesitation in his decision-making, which many of our other players seem to have. He has an idea of his options before he gets the ball, so he's ready to move it to the next player if his space isn't there.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Lafayette
11-24-23 06:28 PM - Post#359646
In response to Penndemonium
BTW, Spinoso really needs to examine his finishing. The announcers said he is shooting 39% FTs this season. That is just terrible. As the announcers said, his stroke doesn't look 39% bad. This implies to me that there is something very small in his stroke that needs to be fixed -- how he visualizes his shot, how it leaves his fingers, or something else. He tends to miss at the back of the rim. Perhaps if he visualizes just one more backspin rotation of the basketball in his shot, it will give him the extra touch with the ball and enough arc trajectory to make the difference. Or perhaps he needs to reach a bit deeper into the cookie jar in his follow through. There should be a very simple fix, as he doesn't look like Shaq in his shot form and feel. But this season his FTs are worse than Shaq.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Lafayette
11-24-23 06:34 PM - Post#359647
In response to Streamers
Penn is a 12.5 point favorite for what it is worth.
It doesn’t look worth much right now. This is a lot more UMES version of the team than it is Nova version unfortunately.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
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Reg: 11-21-04
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11-24-23 06:47 PM - Post#359648
In response to Mike Porter
Spinoso has been (how can I say this nicely), not good. Villanova win looking like fools gold. This lanky 7 footer is averaging 7 ppg and has 23 and we’ve made him look like Shaq. Pretty soon might as well give Gerhart or others more time in middle since Spinoso has been bad on both ends except for rebounding.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-24-23 06:58 PM - Post#359649
In response to Mike Porter
Spinoso has been leaving him on double-teams, and we've been eaten up on that again and again. There is no need to defend him at the three point line, and we need to let the ball-handlers prove they can do something off-the pick. Spinoso is way too slow recovering back to cover his man.
One other suggestion for Spinoso is for him NEVER to shoot without using the backboard. That would help improve the odds of his very flat shot.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Lafayette
11-24-23 07:01 PM - Post#359650
In response to Penndemonium
I like Brown being on the court. Having him on the court creates many more options and much better flow than Thrower.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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11-24-23 07:20 PM - Post#359653
In response to Penndemonium
Phew.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
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11-24-23 07:33 PM - Post#359654
In response to Chip Bayers
Seriously. That was way too much of a nail biter. I only saw the last half of the second half, but had been checking the score earlier and wondering what was going on for the game to be that close.
The offense didn't look so good for much of the part of the game I did see. Penn made just enough plays at both ends of the floor to escape with the win.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
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11-24-23 07:53 PM - Post#359655
In response to Chip Bayers
Phew.
You can say that again: Phew.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
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Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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11-24-23 07:56 PM - Post#359656
In response to OldBig5
Take these odds with a grain of slat. We beat Villanova and now lost to UMES and barely beat these guys today. Will be a roller coaster I think even in the conference. Hope Sipnoso can find is focus.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-24-23 09:01 PM - Post#359657
In response to Penndemonium
Yes, to me it was more the strategy than Spinoso’s execution. The doubling and leaving their big only works if Laz/Holland or at least Perkins/Smith jumps in the middle to help for a moment on the roll. We left the guy way too open way too often. He was either totally unattended for a couple seconds, or Clark was there trying to do something totally futile. At some point, we needed to adjust.
I do think Thrower makes a difference on defense. We haven’t played nearly as well without him for 3 of the last four halves. I have no idea how to figure out how to play our 5 guards enough. But I thought Thrower sat too much in the second half, assuming it wasn’t because of his injury (he appeared to make a couple of mistakes on both sides of the ball early in the second, and he didn’t appear again until the last 12 seconds. Love Brown so far, but we need to keep Cam out there somehow.
Anyway, a win is a win. Offense was good overall (though inconsistent), and we won the boards yet again against a team with some size. Hopefully we play better tomorrow on D.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
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Loc: New York
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11-24-23 09:36 PM - Post#359658
In response to SomeGuy
A big part of these pre-season games with so many new rotation faces is the staff figuring out which lineups work best together for particular situations.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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11-24-23 09:57 PM - Post#359659
In response to Chip Bayers
Two freshman on the floor in crunch time. We already know about Tyler. Looks like Brown is the real thing. Is this the beginning of a four-year run of superior backcourt play?
Holland is back to his role from last year, falling behind Laz in minutes, again like last year.
Only 9 turnovers and good FT shooting. Big progress there.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-25-23 12:10 AM - Post#359661
In response to UPIA1968
Spinoso redeemed himself at the end of the game with better D (avoiding the switch), getting a big putback, drawing a foul on a loose ball, and more. I agree this was more of a coaching issue, although Spinoso could have had a bit more restraint on offense. I stand by my comments on his finishing - hope he has a chance to work on it. If he could hit his over the shoulder shots and learn the lean-in (like AJ), he would be a terror in the league. He would also draw a ton of fouls b/c people wouldn't be able to just let him have the shot. Maybe that bit of touch would help him hit is FTs too. 
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-25-23 12:15 AM - Post#359662
In response to Penndemonium
I would play Brown over Thrower all day right now. This is nothing against Thrower - but Brown seems better in terms of ball-handling, passing, and decision-making. He even seems better at shooting, which is Thrower's strength. He was better than I expected at defense and is taller too. Thrower isn't really a plus player against good competition. At least he looked comfortable at the FT line at the end of the game, though.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
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Lafayette
11-25-23 12:38 AM - Post#359663
In response to Penndemonium
Thrower definitely makes a lot of bad decisions right now. Shooting off the dribble when you’re not Jordan Dingle is one of them.
Squared up on a 3 when the pass hits you chest high so you can release a shot with ease? Definitely. Dribbling into a drifting mid-range pull-up? No, you’re not skilled enough for that.
Edited by Chip Bayers on 11-25-23 12:39 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-25-23 03:20 AM - Post#359665
In response to Chip Bayers
Right now he is looking a lot like Jonah Charles. Making a splash in the first few games with some long range shooting, but not having enough dimensions to keep defenses honest when the scouting report comes out. I hope he can improve meaningfully, but my worry is less about his capabilities and more about his decision-making (nod to Chip). You can see him reading, a small delay, and then him reacting. The reason I'm high on Brown is that he seems to have a few options already in mind before he gets the ball. The ball is already out of his hands before the defense keys in on him. He also seems to have a few go-to cross-over step-back moves to create his own space. I can see him being a 3 point shooter off-the-dribble in the future. I do like the possibilities with him and Perkins for the next few years.
BTW, could you imagine how good Slajchert would be if he was a knock-down three point shooter? He's already really good. Kudos to him for his continued development over the years.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-25-23 03:57 AM - Post#359666
In response to Penndemonium
One other thing to mention - aside from Slajchert's heroics, the unsung hero is Smith. He has a great looking shot - would love to see him taking more. He also seems to have ice cold water in his veins. I'd like to see him pick up a few more of the Thrower/Holland minutes. He adds solid D, a lot of physical strength, and composure to our lineups.
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Streamers
Professor
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11-25-23 10:12 AM - Post#359670
In response to Penndemonium
I too am impressed by what I’ve seen of Brown. He is confident with the ball and appears to have great court sense for a freshman. I have to watch him more closely on defense but his rep as a pure shooter is justified. Thrower still confuses me. Don’t know what to make of him but at this rate his minutes may continue to dwindle. I’m not as worried about Spinoso. I think he’s still adjusting to Martz’s absence on D. Give him time. Yesterday was like a matchup anomaly. Also I think Gerhart is developing quickly. He seems a lot more comfortable out there with each passing game.
This is a young team. We better get used to the high variance roller coaster. I do believe there is more talent there than many of us thought coming into the season.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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11-25-23 12:20 PM - Post#359672
In response to Penndemonium
Yes, in the decisive run at the end of the game, we finally went small with Smith basically playing the 4. I think Steve played the matchups for a lot of the game thinking we needed to play big against Lafayette, and in the end the play was to go small.
Getting back to Brown/Thrower, my eyes see everything you guys are seeing. I see Thrower making some obvious mistakes, and I see Brown looking decisive on offense and better on defense than I expected. It’s the team results that give me pause. With Thrower playing a lot, we were 3-1 with our only loss a close one on the road to a top 100ish team. With Brown playing instead of Thrower, we have gone 1-1 against two bottom 50 teams, and our best half was the only one where Thrower played (1st half against Lafayette). Could just be luck in a small sample size, but so far we simply play better when Thrower is out there. And the defense has statistically been better when he is on the floor. Still early enough that it could just have to do with what everyone else is doing.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Lafayette
11-25-23 12:39 PM - Post#359673
In response to SomeGuy
I agree with most of the comments on this thread. Like many, I’m reluctant to jump to too many conclusions this early.
I do think we will be challenged to score when both Nick and George are on the court together; that is, unless George stops being a reluctant shooter. The offense is already handicapped because Nick has given no team reason to guard him on the perimeter. What makes a team like Princeton interesting is that all 5 guys need to be guarded out there. That keeps the lane from being clogged for cutters. We’d be a lot better if Nick was a threat from deep.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
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11-25-23 12:42 PM - Post#359674
In response to SomeGuy
The one thing I've seen Thrower do that Brown hasn't shown yet is the ability to get into the lane with the ball. His decision making still needs work, as you and others have pointed out, but that collapses defenses and creates opportunities elsewhere on the floor.
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Cvonvorys
Postdoc
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11-25-23 04:29 PM - Post#359682
In response to weinhauers_ghost
Question for this Board: Does Donahue get any credit/criticism for his in-game coaching? This game and others?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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11-25-23 05:16 PM - Post#359687
In response to SomeGuy
Well, I don't think John Jay really counts, and Bucknell was far weaker than Lafayette (by my eye test only). Thrower definitely gets Villanova, but I can't remember the game flow well enough to know that he was a key part of it. I'm not trying to disrespect Thrower, who has seemed to be a really positive Quaker. It is a credit to Brown and Smith, and some acknowledgement that Thrower needs some time to adapt his game. Right now he reminds me of Jackson Donahue. He is a good enough shooter to help the team, but too one dimensional to create wider +/- impact. Eventually, with mainly a shooting skill, the clean shots get harder to come by and aggressive shooting becomes a liability. He still has plenty of room and potential to change that narrative. He can get into the lane, but he hasn't yet been able to finish. Slajchert had that problem his Freshman year and a bit beyond too.
Yes, in the decisive run at the end of the game, we finally went small with Smith basically playing the 4. I think Steve played the matchups for a lot of the game thinking we needed to play big against Lafayette, and in the end the play was to go small.
Getting back to Brown/Thrower, my eyes see everything you guys are seeing. I see Thrower making some obvious mistakes, and I see Brown looking decisive on offense and better on defense than I expected. It’s the team results that give me pause. With Thrower playing a lot, we were 3-1 with our only loss a close one on the road to a top 100ish team. With Brown playing instead of Thrower, we have gone 1-1 against two bottom 50 teams, and our best half was the only one where Thrower played (1st half against Lafayette). Could just be luck in a small sample size, but so far we simply play better when Thrower is out there. And the defense has statistically been better when he is on the floor. Still early enough that it could just have to do with what everyone else is doing.
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