palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-09-23 07:59 PM - Post#360359
A very sad day today in Penn history. A combination of bad messaging obscures that Liz Magill gave exactly the right answer to the wrong question. A blowhard hypocrite,Elise Stefanik, a Harvard alum who was fairly liberal until she held her finger up to the Republican wind, asked Magill whether calling for genocide of Jews constituted harassment under Penn's code of conduct. Problem was that no one was calling for the genocide of Jews. There was a protest march with people chanting "From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will be Free." That's political sloganeering with people making the legitimate argument, whether or not one believes in it, that Palestinians have an equal right to live in the land of their ancestors, as do the Jews. Characterizing something like that as a call for genocide is just ridiculous and makes the mission of the University to sponsor debate and opposing points a view a lost cause in our increasingly Orwellian land, where a woman carrying a dead fetus is being forced to give birth and people are being shot up with the absurd "freedom to kill" that has been written into the Constitution by extremely wealthy people who benefit from everyone else being at each other's throats while they make more and more money. It's absolutely disgusting what happened today, that Liz Magill was not prepared to answer the ridiculous question that clearly was coming (perhaps it can be said she was over her head) and that Penn's donors believe that criticism of Israel by third parties should be suppressed by the University as a condition to their donations. Overall, a very very sad day.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 08:24 PM - Post#360361
In response to palestra38
Agreed.
Here is the relevant information regarding Penn's policies about free speech:
https://supporting-our-co mmunity.upenn.edu/free-sp...
Magill's responses adhered to those guidelines but sadly she came across as a bumbling, incompetent and insensitive bureaucrat.
I've often found myself frustrated listening to Congressional testimonies over the past decade for this very reason. Witnesses will often plead the 5th, refuse to directly answer questions, or twist themselves into legalese so that they do not run afoul of the law, while looking very foolish in the process.
This ouster of not just McGill but Bok is part of the much larger culture wars (and Rowan and Lauder started raising havoc here even before 10/7, with the Palestine Literature Festival, which is what the current mess is a continuation of). It's left wing free speech that they want to prohibit, plain and simple. But when it's a right winger, then you'll hear them rally around the First Amendment and kvetch about so-called "cancel culture".
Edited by penn nation on 12-09-23 08:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Old Bear
Postdoc
Posts: 3998
Reg: 11-23-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 08:35 PM - Post#360363
In response to palestra38
Amen, well done.
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Tiger81
Masters Student
Posts: 412
Loc: Montclair, NJ
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-09-23 08:56 PM - Post#360364
In response to Old Bear
Agreed, a very sad day for Penn and the rest of us too. P38 and PN nailed it.
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
Posts: 336
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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12-09-23 09:07 PM - Post#360365
In response to Tiger81
Stefanik crowing "1 down, 2 to go" was simply nauseating.
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OldBig5
Masters Student
Posts: 639
Age: 66
Reg: 02-18-18
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12-09-23 09:15 PM - Post#360366
In response to Tiger81
I don't think any of us know what any individual palestinian or other student believes when they chant the phrase. However it is clear that Hamas and its sponsors in Iran want the destruction of Israel. So when student groups refuse to condemn the evil acts of Hamas on October 7 it's easy to see why Jews are upset. If they said we condemn what Hamas did but we want to be free that could make a difference. If you don't come out against what Hamas did I don't have much sympathy. If any other group perceives it is being threatened universities are quick to act. Should we just tell jewish students to ignore the slogan if they perceive it as threatening?
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andybech
Freshman
Posts: 81
Reg: 02-15-20
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12-09-23 09:30 PM - Post#360367
In response to OldBig5
I do wonder how sometimes people can be so legalistic in answers to simple questions. It should have been easy to say that calls for genocide would be against Penn's code but the speech in question was not clearly genocide.
I think most of these groups are condemning the Hamas attack but also recognizing that they have legitimate grievances. The phrase "from the river to the sea" was not originally a call for genocide. It was a call for free elections in Palestine for everyone. Now it clearly has been co-opted over the years by extremist groups, but it is not as if the right wing fringes of Netanyahu's cabinet are not saying the same thing from the other direction.
We need both governments/leaders to go.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 09:31 PM - Post#360368
In response to OldBig5
As a bit of background--I was extremely active in the organized Jewish community as a Penn undergrad. It is disturbing to hear about some of what is currently happening on campuses such as Penn's. That was not my college experience (nor is it my experience where I currently teach, at a wonderfully diverse place).
But shouldn't universities be the very places where there are opportunities to learn about and debate the origins, meanings and (if you'll excuse the term) contexts of phrases that evoke such a wide variety of emotions? Perspectives taught from groups of a variety of different religious and political views from Gaza, Israel and the West Bank?
This is what folks like Lauder and Rowan want to shut down.
I don't think any of us know what any individual palestinian or other student believes when they chant the phrase. However it is clear that Hamas and its sponsors in Iran want the destruction of Israel. So when student groups refuse to condemn the evil acts of Hamas on October 7 it's easy to see why Jews are upset. If they said we condemn what Hamas did but we want to be free that could make a difference. If you don't come out against what Hamas did I don't have much sympathy. If any other group perceives it is being threatened universities are quick to act. Should we just tell jewish students to ignore the slogan if they perceive it as threatening?
Edited by penn nation on 12-09-23 09:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 10:00 PM - Post#360370
In response to penn nation
#%$@ these hedge fund bozos trying to impose a speech code (the suggested version in that Wharton board of advisors letter was absurd).
But the Boston Globe has now revealed the real villains: the lawyers. If WilmerHale offers to prep you for congressional testimony, run away.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32834
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 10:26 PM - Post#360371
In response to Chip Bayers
As a lawyer, I was stunned just how badly Magill was prepared to answer the question that obviously was going to be thrown at her. Too many law firms charing $1100 per hour are totally incompetent when it comes to preparing a witness to testify.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23398
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-09-23 10:29 PM - Post#360372
In response to palestra38
They asked her the easiest question in the world four times and she blew it every time. She has damaged our university terribly.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-09-23 11:08 PM - Post#360373
In response to 10Q
Ben Platt's mom now the temporary interim Chair of the Board. She's also the current volunteer head of Jewish Federations of North America (JFNA)--I used to work for this organization's predecessor.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4911
Reg: 02-04-06
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12-09-23 11:32 PM - Post#360374
In response to penn nation
I'm all for free speech on campus. I don't see anyone springing to the defense of Amy Wax here, though. Nor do I see anyone noting the chanting to "globalize the intifada," a blatant threat aimed at Jews everywhere.
But if we can use this fiasco as a teachable moment for our "no enemies to the left" liberals so that we can restore the 1980s standards of free speech on campus--no more canceling of those citing facts or expressing opinions uncongenial to the intersectional oppression commissars--then it will be well worth it.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 70
Reg: 02-09-05
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12-10-23 12:03 AM - Post#360375
In response to penn nation
I just want to make sure that I am getting this straight and understand the “context”.
In a university environment in which addressing someone by other than their preferred pronoun warrants a disciplinary hearing, and where shouting that any Jews who are unhappy about the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7 can “go back to Berlin where they came from” is just fine. Where female swimmers who feel complain about being forced to change 18 times a week in a locker room with a person who struts around showing off their erection are in need of psychological counseling, but blind allegiance to an organization whose sole expressed purpose is to murder Jews is just fine. And in an environment in which Jewish students are cautioned for their safety against wearing kipot or other outward signs of their religious faith while walking on campus, no “harassment, intimidation, or bullying” is taking place.
Yeah, that all seems to make perfect sense to me.
Scott Bok is alleged to have tried to pressure four members of Penn’s Board of Trustees to resign from the Board as a result of their having expressed concerns about Penn’s hosting of a supposed Palestinian cultural event whose invited guests on the eve of Yom Kippur included a person infamous for appearing on stage dressed as a Nazi. I have no way to prove or disprove those allegations but if true it sounds a lot like the actions of the UCLA student government when they unseated duly elected duly elected student representatives who happened to be Jewish because they anticipated that any student reps who were Jewish might vote against a BDS resolution, only worse.
No doubt Presidents McGill and Gay answered Congresswoman Stefanik’s questions the way they were instructed to by the lawyers from the Firm representing Penn and Harvard in connection with the ongoing Title VI investigation both institutions are facing. They were “just following orders” (when is the last time we heard that excuse?)
All of that said I guess we should all be happy as we have gotten what we really wanted: Penn being mentioned publicly in the same breath as Harvard, so maybe it’s not such a “very sad day” after all.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 12:03 AM - Post#360376
In response to SRP
Amy Wax has been doing this for five years.
Not once have any of these self-important hedge fund types said they'll stop donating to Penn because of the stuff she continues to do, including inviting White Nationalist guest speakers (as she did within the past month).
We didn't see also Stefanik mention anything about right wing antisemitism, nor did the "antisemitism" House Resolution which was passed on the same day with virtually no Jewish Representatives supporting the measure (it also served to equate anti-semitism with pretty much any criticism of Israel at all--again, a right wing hit piece).
Free speech means exposing ourself to different viewpoints which at times may make us uncomfortable. If this turns into physical acts, that is a different story.
But I'll fight anyone who wants to enact book bans or book burnings (as we've already started to see in some states)--these have been harbingers of calamities in the past in Jewish history. Or the curtailing of perspectives, including a Palestinian Writing Festival. Heck, the first time I read Mein Kampf was in Van Pelt Library (in Tom Childers' simply incredible RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH class).
This is all part of a very worrisome trend in education. The real cancel culture is being enforced on those who do not have hedge fund managers among their midst.
And no, I do not want to go back to the Reagan era--hard pass.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8257
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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12-10-23 12:57 AM - Post#360377
In response to penn nation
I have learned a few things reading this thread, including the story about the law firm that prepped Magill and Gay, confirming my suspicions about that aspect. The proper preparation would have been failing to appear at the hearing; an act that is now established as being free of material consequences.
Funny how history repeats itself. The parallels between this decade and the 1960s roll on. The last time a Penn president stepped down in the wake of student protests was Gaylord Harnwell in 1970.
My head explodes at the idea of Elise Stefanik grilling Magill accusing Penn of being institutionally anti-Semitic (still an absurd notion on its face) and holding Israel/Ukraine aid hostage on the same day.
Freedom of education and speech IS under attack. Ask anyone in the Florida about that. You can’t tell me that had no bearing on this. In the end, none of it will take Penn any closer to being a safe place to learn and speak out for Jews, Muslims, or anyone else- something that was a given in our time there.
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slane
Freshman
Posts: 70
Reg: 02-09-05
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12-10-23 01:24 AM - Post#360378
In response to Streamers
Penn is not “institutionally” antisemitic. Unfortunately, however, this administration has allowed an environmental moment that is hostile to Jews. Inviting a person to speak at Penn (on the eve of Yom Kippur) who has been known to parade around on stage dressed as a Nazi creates a hostile environment. More to the point, you should compare the statements made by Liz and by the President of Drexel in response to last Sunday’s March through University City.
Now think about what Penn’s administrative response would be to a speaker who at a rally in front of Van Pelt said that any African Americans who believe that George Floyd was killed by Derek Chauvin rather than dying of a fentanyl overdose should “go back to Africa.”
How would that be different than saying that any Jews who don’t believe that Israel must be eradicated should “go back to Berlin where they came from”?
I hope you would agree that the first example should not be tolerated. The second (which actually happened) was. There is a difference between civil discourse, and acts specifically intended to create a hostile environment.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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Day of the Executioner
12-10-23 01:24 AM - Post#360379
In response to SRP
no more canceling of those citing facts or expressing opinions uncongenial to Ron DeSantis the intersectional oppression commissars--then it will be well worth it.
Fixed it for you.
Edited by penn nation on 12-10-23 01:24 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 01:32 AM - Post#360380
In response to slane
The festival took place close to Yom Kippur, but not on it.
But that's a red herring--Rowan and Lauder did not want this Festival happening, no matter what the date was.
Look, growing up in the Chicago area a big event was when Nazis wanted to march in Skokie (where all 4 of my grandparents lived, as did many Holocaust survivors). It was ruled as legal. Many came to protest but we respected the decision of the Supreme Court.
The bottom line is once you start shutting down free speech for a selected few (and only on the basis of what a few self-important people want) it never ends well.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21205
Reg: 12-02-04
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12-10-23 01:39 AM - Post#360381
In response to slane
Again, Amy Wax has been offending students for the past five years based on racial and ethnic insults And these are students in her classes, mind you--a captive audience. So the "this would not be happening to any other group" statement is not, in fact, accurate.
And Penn did, in fact, recently ban a film that is very critical of Israel (which a student group defied and showed anyways). I thought it was outrageous that they banned it in the first place, but again to suggest that somehow Penn is "institutionally anti-Semitic" is hardly the case.
Penn is not “institutionally” antisemitic. Unfortunately, however, this administration has allowed an environmental moment that is hostile to Jews. Inviting a person to speak at Penn (on the eve of Yom Kippur) who has been known to parade around on stage dressed as a Nazi creates a hostile environment. More to the point, you should compare the statements made by Liz and by the President of Drexel in response to last Sunday’s March through University City.
Now think about what Penn’s administrative response would be to a speaker who at a rally in front of Van Pelt said that any African Americans who believe that George Floyd was killed by Derek Chauvin rather than dying of a fentanyl overdose should “go back to Africa.”
How would that be different than saying that any Jews who don’t believe that Israel must be eradicated should “go back to Berlin where they came from”?
I hope you would agree that the first example should not be tolerated. The second (which actually happened) was. There is a difference between civil discourse, and acts specifically intended to create a hostile environment.
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