Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3779
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-25-24 03:01 PM - Post#362103
In response to Streamers
Of course, all of this is just idle speculation. My point was they would need to have someone lined up before cutting SD along with a healthy recruiting budget.
And that's the key issue for me. I think one (admittedly not the only) reason Steve has been less successful than we would have hoped is that he is under-resourced. If the university is to attract a coach who would be a clear step up, it would need to put the various necessary resources in place to facilitate effective recruiting.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Question
01-25-24 07:31 PM - Post#362125
In response to Silver Maple
Of course, all of this is just idle speculation. My point was they would need to have someone lined up before cutting SD along with a healthy recruiting budget.
And that's the key issue for me. I think one (admittedly not the only) reason Steve has been less successful than we would have hoped is that he is under-resourced. If the university is to attract a coach who would be a clear step up, it would need to put the various necessary resources in place to facilitate effective recruiting.
Based on what evidence? I have no inside knowledge to know either way, but I do know the university surely invested a lot in the facilities that recruits have to work with (and which they've shouted about). I'd love to hear factual evidence of this staff having less resources than the rest of the Ivy League (including Princeton who literally chased off coaches by not paying enough, yet still is the top 1/2 team for a long while now). I tend to doubt it, but don't know either way.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-25-24 07:35 PM - Post#362126
In response to Streamers
I don't disagree with any of your points, but I will respond the way I always do in these situations to say: "Where will you go to find a better replacement?" It's never a good idea to fire someone without considering this.
BTW do we know SD's contract status?
This is a rather wild suggestion. In what other profession do you have to have a replacement ready before you can even consider moving on from someone? How can you possibly know who truly would be interested until there is an actual position available? Can you put out feelers, of course, is that the same as inviting someone in for a real interview? No.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Question
01-25-24 08:53 PM - Post#362129
In response to Mike Porter
I agree you don't necessarily need to have a successor, but you do need to have confidence you can attract a good one.
I really don't know how to allocate responsibility for our mediocrity. Here's what I suspect, but with no first-hand knowledge:
1. Steve Donahue is a great guy, but isn't a great closer in signing recruits.
2. Donahue and staff aren't pressing every button of the recruiting value chain to optimize recruiting. You need to be the best at communicating, prioritizing, building out your relationships with coaches, getting to know families, creating vision, and more. You can't be great at 2 or 3 of these categories. You have to be the best at each. I get the feeling our staff doesn't work hard enough. Even though I thought it was distasteful and inappropriate that Amaker went to see Rosen at the supermarket, I absolutely respected the work ethic. Our coaching staff doesn't appear to hustle enough. Our team seems to want to play recruiting straight. They seem to want the players to love them back instead of just flat out selling.
3. Our results over recent years aren't terrible, but they aren't going to be the reason winners will join our program.
4. I do get the feel that the administration doesn't really care much about athletics and basketball. They want to put out sports program fires, not to support the programs to make them champions. They do not seem to make sure coaches are accountable for excellence. They just want to avoid problems.
5. I get the feel that something isn't right with financial aid, admissions, NIL, coach salaries, or something else. I don't know what it is exactly.
Recruits and families can sense when a coaching staff has these things all working together to create a winner and be a great place for their kids. I am guessing that everyone respects Donahue and trusts him with their kids, but they probably don't think he has the full cohesive package for their kids' experience.
This is all conjecture based on our recruiting results, press reporting, NYCHoops, and general lurking around the program. We'd know by now if SD was the full package. He's a partial package and that doesn't set you up for perennial championships. Clearly Amaker is a partial package too - almost the opposite half of Donahue.
I like what some young hungry coaches like Brian Earl, Mitch Henderson, Langel, and others are doing. I think this generation of recruits connects better to those type of guys. They also seem more in touch with modern basketball generally.
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Bryan
Junior
Posts: 233
Loc: Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Question
01-25-24 09:48 PM - Post#362131
In response to Penndemonium
I like what some young hungry coaches like Brian Earl, Mitch Henderson, Langel, and others are doing. I think this generation of recruits connects better to those type of guys. They also seem more in touch with modern basketball generally.
James Jones is 60 years old so he's not young but here are his Ivy League wins in the last 10 years from 2013-2023 (so all years except the canceled 2021): 8,9,11,13,9,9,10,11,11,10 . That's 101-39. So it's not just players connecting better with young coaches.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21214
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Question
01-25-24 10:10 PM - Post#362133
In response to Bryan
And the thing is, people like to harp on SD being so predictable, but so is Jones. You know exactly the kind of team you're going to play, year in and year out.
And they do it very well--that's the difference. Predictability does not necessarily lead to being beat.
I like what some young hungry coaches like Brian Earl, Mitch Henderson, Langel, and others are doing. I think this generation of recruits connects better to those type of guys. They also seem more in touch with modern basketball generally.
James Jones is 60 years old so he's not young but here are his Ivy League wins in the last 10 years from 2013-2023 (so all years except the canceled 2021): 8,9,11,13,9,9,10,11,11,10 . That's 101-39. So it's not just players connecting better with young coaches.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8260
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-26-24 12:23 AM - Post#362137
In response to Mike Porter
I don't disagree with any of your points, but I will respond the way I always do in these situations to say: "Where will you go to find a better replacement?" It's never a good idea to fire someone without considering this.
BTW do we know SD's contract status?
This is a rather wild suggestion. In what other profession do you have to have a replacement ready before you can even consider moving on from someone? How can you possibly know who truly would be interested until there is an actual position available? Can you put out feelers, of course, is that the same as inviting someone in for a real interview? No.
It is certainly true in the business world. In my own career, I know I was taught, and always practiced, the discipline of being very reluctant to fire someone for performance unless I had someone in mind to replace them that I believed would be an improvement. I expected the same practice from the managers who worked for me. Of course, the middle management positions I am referring to are far more fungible than D-1 coaches, but why would you fire one of those unless you were confident you could find a superior replacement? SD has his flaws, but the list of high potential superior replacements with some level of availability cannot be all that long.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Question
01-26-24 04:39 AM - Post#362139
In response to Bryan
Of course some old coaches perform well and connect well too. That doesn't negate my point that several less experienced coaches are doing a great job. If I used your logic, I could refute your point with the simple fact that Mitch Henderson outperformed James Jones.
I like what some young hungry coaches like Brian Earl, Mitch Henderson, Langel, and others are doing. I think this generation of recruits connects better to those type of guys. They also seem more in touch with modern basketball generally.
James Jones is 60 years old so he's not young but here are his Ivy League wins in the last 10 years from 2013-2023 (so all years except the canceled 2021): 8,9,11,13,9,9,10,11,11,10 . That's 101-39. So it's not just players connecting better with young coaches.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-26-24 05:30 AM - Post#362140
In response to Streamers
I don't disagree with any of your points, but I will respond the way I always do in these situations to say: "Where will you go to find a better replacement?" It's never a good idea to fire someone without considering this.
BTW do we know SD's contract status?
This is a rather wild suggestion. In what other profession do you have to have a replacement ready before you can even consider moving on from someone? How can you possibly know who truly would be interested until there is an actual position available? Can you put out feelers, of course, is that the same as inviting someone in for a real interview? No.
It is certainly true in the business world. In my own career, I know I was taught, and always practiced, the discipline of being very reluctant to fire someone for performance unless I had someone in mind to replace them that I believed would be an improvement. I expected the same practice from the managers who worked for me. Of course, the middle management positions I am referring to are far more fungible than D-1 coaches, but why would you fire one of those unless you were confident you could find a superior replacement? SD has his flaws, but the list of high potential superior replacements with some level of availability cannot be all that long.
Interesting, I'm in the business world, but this has not been my experience at all personally. Ideas for who you might want to look at or places you want to look for candidates? Sure. A locked in ready replacement? Can't say I recall that unless a very specific case of elevating someone already on the team. I have been more in the tech startup business world though, so if your experience was in bigger corporate (you mention middle managers, not a lot of that in my space), I could see that being different/more the case there.
I'm not saying a change is going to happen because I doubt it will (sadly). But your premise sounds like a losing proposition from the start doesn't it? Hard to argue these last 8 years as much better than average (I didn't do the math, but I would guess the average KP rating over the seasons is probably about dead middle of D1). So we are supposed to resign ourselves to the fact that is the best we can do?
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8260
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-26-24 01:44 PM - Post#362155
In response to Mike Porter
Interesting, I'm in the business world, but this has not been my experience at all personally. Ideas for who you might want to look at or places you want to look for candidates? Sure. A locked in ready replacement?
At this point, we may be splitting hairs between having somebody signed, and knowing exactly whom you would call on short notice. This could be someone on your speed dial or someone on the hot list of the recruiting agencies
Can't say I recall that unless a very specific case of elevating someone already on the team.
Does the name Fran McCaffery ring a bell?
I'm not saying a change is going to happen because I doubt it will (sadly). But your premise sounds like a losing proposition from the start doesn't it? Hard to argue these last 8 years as much better than average (I didn't do the math, but I would guess the average KP rating over the seasons is probably about dead middle of D1). So we are supposed to resign ourselves to the fact that is the best we can do?
No, we are to accept the fact that SD will remain in place as long as he wishes as long as the team remains competitive and he runs a clean program. That is the Ivy Way. Of course, he may wish to leave or be replaced by a cheaper coach should we end up in D-III.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Question
01-26-24 02:38 PM - Post#362158
In response to Streamers
Can't say I recall that unless a very specific case of elevating someone already on the team.
Does the name Fran McCaffery ring a bell?
I'm not saying a change is going to happen because I doubt it will (sadly). But your premise sounds like a losing proposition from the start doesn't it? Hard to argue these last 8 years as much better than average (I didn't do the math, but I would guess the average KP rating over the seasons is probably about dead middle of D1). So we are supposed to resign ourselves to the fact that is the best we can do?
No, we are to accept the fact that SD will remain in place as long as he wishes as long as the team remains competitive and he runs a clean program. That is the Ivy Way. Of course, he may wish to leave or be replaced by a cheaper coach should we end up in D-III.
On first point, I meant in my work life, not college basketball. Yes I remember this, and yes I remember him not ever being our coach. I guess that is my point, you aren't going to know what is really going to happen until you decide the team you have just isn't good enough.
And on your second point, that is the definition of acceptance of mediocrity. I'm sure you're probably right as I said. What I can tell you is that my interest has already waned significantly and I see that across the board here (look at how dead it is for midseason). I won't watch the game live this weekend, and won't watch it at all if we lose. I hope they win of course, but that is about all I can muster. Wait much longer, and no one will be left to care because surely no new fans are being minted right now. Maybe that is the admin's strategy all along.
Either way, nothing kills a program as effectively as consistent mediocrity. No excitement when you don't win, and no hope when there is no chance for change.
This year will be 6 years since the last NCAA tourney spot (baring a downright miracle). 1 tournament in 17 years, with no next tournament trip in sight. It that isn't sobering, not sure what is.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-27-24 03:33 PM - Post#362187
In response to Mike Porter
True. We can't blame Donahue, the AD, or this administration for the last 17 years. But your point is well taken.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-27-24 03:58 PM - Post#362212
In response to Penndemonium
His usage of McMullen alone is enough for me. I just can’t take it anymore. He has ruined Penn basketball. Apathy is the worst thing that can happen and here we are. Who actually gets better?? You have a guy in Holland who is an obvious offensive weapon to be cultivated and instead we get to watch McMullen and Smith. How much more are we supposed to take?! What is their identity?! It certainly isn’t defense…We really just going to keep doing the same thing year after year? What has Nat done to deserve a lifetime contract?! While Princeton builds another dynasty.
When you have someone like a connected NYCHoops openly telling you where the problem lies, what more is there to say?! Thanks to the admin for ruining one of my favorite passions. This may be the last year I pay for season tickets. I NEVER thought I’d say that.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-27-24 04:00 PM - Post#362214
In response to Quakers03
Well, good to see you back posting, anyway. I agree with you and did give up my season tickets after 30 years this year.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Question
01-27-24 04:02 PM - Post#362217
In response to palestra38
My anger brought me back. Can’t say I’ll stay for long. What a disgrace. Hope all is well with everyone.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-27-24 05:08 PM - Post#362258
In response to palestra38
Two more things from this thread.
1 year later and I’m still far from over that despicable call on Spinoso by the former Harvard player official. Absolutely handed Princeton a path to the sweet 16.
If and when they finally move on, at least we won’t have to hear the whistling anymore. I wonder how bad it has to get before a change is made. More years of slightly above average play on the horizon!
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