Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: @Brown
02-07-24 12:27 AM - Post#362859
In response to SomeGuy
Yes, he plays 7 mins a game, averaging 1.7 points and 1.3 rebounds on a 9-13 CAL team that Kenpom expects will be 12-19 (8-12 in Pac12) by the end of the season. Sitting at KP 109 right now, which would be good for 4th place in the current Ivy League.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @Brown
02-07-24 10:06 AM - Post#362868
In response to Mike Porter
Right. But the guy we are talking about comparing him to isn’t even the best player on the 7th place Ivy team, currently 259 in KenPom, and whose only other Ivy offer was from the 8th place (KenPom 340) team. While Larson had an offer from Brown and reportedly Yale. Larson’s offers from Yale, Penn and, subsequently, Cal, are better than any of the offers Nana had. Not saying I (or anyone else) takes Larson over Nana today. But it wasn’t an absurd notion at the time, and it looks like Penn wasn’t the only one thinking that way.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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02-10-24 09:15 PM - Post#363027
In response to SomeGuy
I didn’t even know Gus Larson left and went to Cal. Lololol. Way to go, Steve!! What are we freaking doing here?!
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-10-24 09:26 PM - Post#363030
In response to Quakers03
That seems a bit unfair. Larson may have had any number of reasons beyond the coach to transfer, and it is not an outlier with the portal. He didn't really get significant time for us, and it isn't really clear he would have seen the court even with our big-man depleted roster.
I'm not defending the coach. I just think this is a useless comment unless you know something specific.
I didn’t even know Gus Larson left and went to Cal. Lololol. Way to go, Steve!! What are we freaking doing here?!
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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02-10-24 09:55 PM - Post#363042
In response to Penndemonium
“He didn’t really get significant time for us.”
BINGO. Steve seems to find the guys he likes and the others just don’t get the chance. Somehow Cal can take him but we couldn’t find him some more minutes and/or make him feel good about staying with a program that has very little front court depth. Any way you slice it this is just another indictment of the coach and program. How much more are we supposed to take??
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2140
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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02-11-24 12:31 AM - Post#363052
In response to Quakers03
I saw Larson get some time in last year's season opener against Iona, and he looked badly overmatched at both ends of the floor. He just wasn't strong enough to hold position. After that game he fell out of the rotation and was rarely seen in uniform after that.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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@Brown
02-11-24 02:24 AM - Post#363056
In response to Quakers03
OMG. Now not playing Larson is the reason Donahue is a bad coach? Do we have to revisit this BS? There are plenty of legit reasons, let's not invent ones with no basis in reality. You undermine yourself. Larson didn't even get a lot of time with his HS team. He had a season ending injury after 5 games.
Blame the coach for a lack of good big men. Not for not finding court Larson. Despite an interesting skill set, he never showed signs he belonged in the lineup. Blame the coach for the loss of Dingle or Martz if you have more knowledge about their reasons for leaving. Not Larson.
“He didn’t really get significant time for us.”
BINGO. Steve seems to find the guys he likes and the others just don’t get the chance. Somehow Cal can take him but we couldn’t find him some more minutes and/or make him feel good about staying with a program that has very little front court depth. Any way you slice it this is just another indictment of the coach and program. How much more are we supposed to take??
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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@Brown
02-11-24 08:17 AM - Post#363060
In response to Penndemonium
This is starting to get ridiculous now. No basis in reality?! Are you joking me?? Why don’t you tell me in which scenario the coaching staff is NOT culpable on this one.
1. They recruited a player who was never going to be a right fit and took him over the likes of Nana. Maybe Steve was so shocked to actually be recruiting against his competition instead of small D1 schools that he just HAD to have him.
2. They recruited a player that they thought was good enough to get minutes game one soph year, but who they realized still couldn’t play after a year and a half of supposed development. Then, after getting minutes he is benched, and then gets hurt. So either they agree to go their separate ways due to fit or the communication obviously fails and there is no understanding about the potential for Gus on a team needing front court minutes.
3. Mistakes happen and maybe the HS injury derailed his freshman year and it stunted his growth, but how then can a team like Cal not only find room for him but then gives him 11 minutes in a one point loss to UCLA yesterday? It’s not even like he went home to CT. He went across the country.
Any way you slice this it is just another in a now long line of coaching indictments.
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AsiaSunset
Postdoc
Posts: 4361
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 08:58 AM - Post#363069
In response to Quakers03
https://www.thedp.com/article/2023/04/penn- sports-...
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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@Brown
02-11-24 09:14 AM - Post#363072
In response to AsiaSunset
Thanks for sharing. At what point can we discuss that which no one else seems to want to? The handling of mental health on this team has seemingly not been the best over the years. Certain styles don't work for every player and we seem to have a lead assistant coach who can be pretty hard on big guys. There have always been whispers, like with Wang, but we never get more. Can’t wait to hear how I’m over the line on this criticism too…
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 09:54 AM - Post#363076
In response to Penndemonium
It's not one single thing. Martz and Dingle leaving isn't some isolated event unrelated to Larson leaving, too.
The culture and energy surrounding this program are bad and the results reflect that.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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@Brown
02-11-24 10:01 AM - Post#363079
In response to CM
I still can’t believe I was attacked for that position. They have helped deliver what could be a final blow to Penn basketball but the coach did it with a smile and friendly disposition. Jeff was right.
He’s a nice man. Can’t cut it as coach.
I know I’ve brought him up before but when can we actually talk about Nat?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 10:40 AM - Post#363088
In response to CM
Curious about this. Obviously you can’t tell a whole lot about culture from most of our positions. However, I do get to the Palestra basically as soon as the doors open and watch warmups before every game. For pretty much the entirety of Steve’s tenure, the team has always appeared comparatively (1) organized, and (2) like they are having fun. Obviously I see them more than any other team, but the energy has always been good. This year, for the first time, I have seen some cracks in that, but really only coming out for the 2nd half for Harvard. Weirdly, that bad energy led into a very good 2nd half.
A few guys always stuck out to me pregame in terms of establishing culture, and one of those guys was Lucas Monroe. So maybe that is a difference this year. But to me culture and energy have not appeared to be an issue under this staff. They’ve been an easy group to root for in a human sense throughout Steve’s tenure.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 11:00 AM - Post#363090
In response to Quakers03
In the micro sense, I have trouble with the concept of culpability here in general. Not every player develops, for lots of reasons that may or may not have to do with the staff. Larson was an interesting player, but a tweener in some ways. Guard skills from when he was younger, but center height. Lots that could go right in terms of fit and development, but also lots that could go wrong. I kind of view this stuff in percentage terms — you get a player at larson’s level in the recruiting rankings/offers, you get say a 70% chance it works out. Sometimes you get the 30%.
So like penndemonium, I have trouble with the concept that Larson’s transfer is somehow the ultimate indicator that the coach stinks. That said, my problem is just with (I think) overstating the importance of Larson leaving. The overall record is ultimately what I feel comfortable going on, because after 9 years it smooths out the noise of what may be one off situations. And the overall record says Steve isn’t nearly as bad as he is sometimes described. But the overall record also says that Steve hasn’t been good enough.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 11:18 AM - Post#363091
In response to SomeGuy
I think Dingle and Martz leaving sends a very strong message that they thought last year was their year and when it fizzled out, this program had taken them as far as they could go, which was 3rd place. Remember, Donahue's sole title was won primarily because of players he inherited (and one transfer). His recruits have not done better than 3rd place. He could not sustain the improvement to the title run, nor could he get teams with the best player in the league to a regular season title. He has underperformed his talent---to me, that's a much greater sin than underperforming in recruiting.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 11:30 AM - Post#363095
In response to SomeGuy
But records in every sport are not just judged over 9 years. The trend matters. Championship winning coaches get fired not many years later. This is clearly not going well. And, yes, there are excuses and rationalizations galore but eventually you are what your record says you are.
If they lose twenty games there are no excuses for being that bad and keeping your job. If there is no accountability at all the administration is clearly saying we should not care either.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 11:45 AM - Post#363098
In response to 91Quake
Well, I agree with you about how coaches are judged in sports. But i don’t necessarily think that is a good thing. I think sports teams generally favor change over stability, but do so overall to their detriment. There are lots of reasons they do so — mostly fan engagement and drawing interest/controversy. But I think overall they hurt themselves in terms of wins and losses with the constant changes.
As for your point about whether the administration cares, that is how the entire conference operates. There hasn’t been a coaching change in men’s basketball in the entire conference in 8 years. Penn has the 4th best record over that time. For better or worse, our conference doesn’t fire coaches very often, let alone a coach who finishes top 4 every year (at least until this year). So it isn’t just Penn. It’s the whole league.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 12:00 PM - Post#363103
In response to palestra38
Not sure that was the thinking for Dingle/Martz. I think Dingle had a lot more to do with Dingle and reaching the NBA than anything else. Obviously they would have a better shot in the Ivy this year as seniors with a good class coming in. With Martz, we’ll see. I tend to agree with you that he will show up somewhere as a grad transfer, though there are those who insist he is done playing. We’ll find out whether he made a decision to play a season elsewhere or simply hung up the spikes. If he does plan to play elsewhere, obviously his decision followed from Dingle’s.
On the point about underperforming the talent . . .. For me, that is always hard to evaluate. None of these guys were heavily recruited coming out of high school. The fact that they appear to be a talented team that underperformed may be something that actually results from good coaching, in a sense. They were put in a position to succeed, at least in some ways. Dingle was an NBA prospect when he played for Steve. He probably isn’t one now. It may be that they look like a talented team because of the coaching, not in spite of it.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 03:56 PM - Post#363123
In response to SomeGuy
Not sure that was the thinking for Dingle/Martz. I think Dingle had a lot more to do with Dingle and reaching the NBA than anything else. Obviously they would have a better shot in the Ivy this year as seniors with a good class coming in. With Martz, we’ll see. I tend to agree with you that he will show up somewhere as a grad transfer, though there are those who insist he is done playing. We’ll find out whether he made a decision to play a season elsewhere or simply hung up the spikes. If he does plan to play elsewhere, obviously his decision followed from Dingle’s.
On the point about underperforming the talent . . .. For me, that is always hard to evaluate. None of these guys were heavily recruited coming out of high school. The fact that they appear to be a talented team that underperformed may be something that actually results from good coaching, in a sense. They were put in a position to succeed, at least in some ways. Dingle was an NBA prospect when he played for Steve. He probably isn’t one now. It may be that they look like a talented team because of the coaching, not in spite of it.
Now we can thank our consistently mediocre results to good coaching to make up for poor recruiting? Who does the recruiting again?
Or is it that we recruit “system fit” kids and that’s why our recruiting looks bad but is secretly good, but coaching and development isn’t good enough to take advantage and that results in mediocre results?
Oh wait, it doesn’t matter either way because the coaches are responsible for all of that and the results are the results.
I get your point about constant changes of coaches and I agree. However this coaching staff has had 9 years, so any change if it were to happen (and I highly doubt it will) is not going to be an example of what you’re talking about. The cold, hard truth is that we know where this coaching staff can get this program to and it’s just not good enough.
Appreciate them being good guys and bringing back a clean program, but the results simply are in (mediocre) and have been trending down. 9 years and not a single Top 100 team is really all you need to know.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: @Brown
02-11-24 04:41 PM - Post#363126
In response to Mike Porter
Agree with almost all of this. While I quibble with a lot of what is said here, my quibbles are with the level of the vitriol and hyperbole. In the end, the results are the results, and at this point I don’t think they’re good enough, either. Heck, I’m quite confident Steve himself doesn’t think the results are good enough.
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