penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-03-24 08:47 PM - Post#362687
About the best thing you can say so far is that at least Penn is not getting blown out--so far. It sure looked like they would be after the first 3-4 minutes of this one.
Good looks have been extremely tough to come by.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Yale
02-03-24 09:06 PM - Post#362694
In response to penn nation
Well, they start the second half the way they started the first half and now it is indeed a blowout.
This team could very well finish in last place this year.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Yale
02-03-24 09:08 PM - Post#362695
In response to penn nation
Thankfully, Dartmouth is even worse. But this Penn team has the triple trouble of not enough talent, not enough experience, and the coach doesn't know what to do with them. He had his chance last year and he thought he would have one more. It was not to be.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-03-24 09:49 PM - Post#362705
In response to palestra38
Honestly, I can't wait until baseball at Wrigley. None of my other sports teams that I root for are/will be any good until then.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-03-24 09:59 PM - Post#362708
In response to penn nation
With baseball, there is always hope, especially with the current wild card rules that allow crappy teams like Arizona to get to the World Series. There's currently no hope for Penn.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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02-03-24 10:23 PM - Post#362715
In response to palestra38
20 points for Brown. Penn gave up 69% shooting on twos with 32 points in the paint.
Sure Clark's absence hurts on offense. But it doesn't explain the poor defense.
As to Dingle departure. Yale, Princeton, Cornell, and Harvard all lost their best player last year. So every team has to deal with such things. So do it well, some don't.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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02-03-24 10:28 PM - Post#362716
In response to UPIA1968
Penn also lost Monroe and MLL on defense and then Martz was also lost.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-03-24 11:02 PM - Post#362722
In response to palestra38
I saw it was relatively close at half and I had a few minutes so I turned it on, the lead for Yale instantly ballooned and I turned it back off after 5 or 10 mins. It was the right choice.
1-5…. with Princeton away (haven’t beaten them in a depressingly long time and hard to see it now even with Clark) before Yale at home. So is 1-5 embarrassing enough? If not, is 1-7 embarrassing enough for at least some consideration for a change?
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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02-03-24 11:22 PM - Post#362726
In response to Mike Porter
Maybe this is the best thing that can happen. When do we start the thread with real alternatives? Not Bruce Pearl and Ben Howland like who used to be in our dreams. Mccaffrey is long gone. Guess it has to be one of the alum? I imagine either of them would come?
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Yale
02-04-24 12:02 AM - Post#362728
In response to Quakers03
I don’t know what’s worse, the 1-5 record or the fact that I just searched Twitter and there aren’t even any Penn fans left to complain about the level of mediocrity we are mired in at this point. I don’t see a single tweet from Penn perspective from a fan about the game.
If a college basketball program dies on the vine in the forest, but there are no fans to see it, does it really die?
Any defenders left here really think there is a way this program turns around under the current coaching staff?
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besnoah
Masters Student
Posts: 803
Reg: 12-14-05
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Yale
02-04-24 09:25 AM - Post#362732
In response to Mike Porter
I don’t understand why we’d be so rash in moving on. Steve’s barely gotten 9 seasons to put together one in-conference double-digit win season and one tournament appearance. Maybe in another decade we’d have an outside shot at another one!
Edited by besnoah on 02-04-24 09:26 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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02-04-24 11:18 AM - Post#362738
In response to besnoah
Can i ask an honest question and i'm not trying to instigate nor am i using whatever behind the scenes information i might have... what do coaches supporters use to defend him? His track record( short of the inarguably impressive tourny run which circumstances are well documented) isn't good. His recruiting isn't good. His in game adjustments surpass the not good so in all honesty am i missing something here?
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8260
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-04-24 11:38 AM - Post#362743
In response to nychoops
I do not see anyone making any blanket defense of SD. Some feel certain specific criticisms are not borne out by the facts, but that is the extent of it. Others, like myself, feel the entire debate means little because there is no indication that the Penn administration would force him out short of a major scandal or an Allen-style meltdown. I do not know when his contract is up, but it will be interesting to see what happens when it is. My guess is that he will be extended unless he decides to leave on his own.
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CM
Masters Student
Posts: 424
Reg: 10-11-18
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02-04-24 11:45 AM - Post#362744
In response to nychoops
Lots of folks on this board discounted Martz opting not to return. They did so at their peril. When your best returning player decides he'd rather not play at all than play for you it's indicative of deep issues.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-04-24 12:06 PM - Post#362749
In response to CM
I know I asked where do people think he will resurface next year as a grad transfer.
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pennsive
Junior
Posts: 200
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-04-24 12:50 PM - Post#362755
In response to palestra38
I am not a defender of Steve D., but without more facts, it is reasonable that there are many reasons, including residual injury, why a fifth year senior who saw no path to a championship might opt to sit out this year rather than hang out with underclassmen. That said, I am among the few of us who still watches every minute of every game on ESPN+ because of my 60 plus years of caring very deeply about Penn and its basketball team. Just as I was disappointed and hurt by Liz McGill’s obvious lack of sophistication in the ways she failed to manage campus upheaval and the hostility of the Washington committee hearing, I see SD lacking the ability to adjust to the way that recruiting and coaching have evolved. I believe he cares very much, and see signs that his players care very much about their team and the university, so he deserves credit for that. He seems to be a good man, one deserving of his players’ loyalty, but a coach whose defensive schemes look the same as they would have 40 years ago, and whose recruiting falls far short of the upgrades in recruiting by his Ivy peer group. Even if magically Clark returns and makes a big difference and he were to influence Martz to join him to finish out the season, we still would be a third place quality team at best. More realistically, we will finish fifth or sixth, and, sadly, it will continue this way until Steve or the university do what is needed to up their game.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Yale
02-04-24 06:06 PM - Post#362769
In response to pennsive
I agree that no one is blanket defending him. My main defense is that I just don't care enough anymore - about college sports, not just Penn basketball - to bang the table for his ouster. I also find it hard to pour loyalty into a program where the university President and AD don't seem to care any more deeply than I do. I agree that SD's record has been proven mediocre, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about admissions, financial aid, NIL, and resources to assign blame. The buck stops with the coach, though. It's the coach's job to manage upwards too.
SD undoubtedly did a fantastic coaching job with Cornell. He took that team as far as any other Ivy team (even the best P-P teams of the modern era) into the NCAAs. If you watched those games, his team was better coached than its opponents. Accomplishing that at Cornell is against all odds. He is not flat out a bad coach. That said, he has not shown the ability to recreate that magic at BC or Penn. His teams have not been good on defense. I think his offensive scheme is decent. It is just well scouted and understood within the league. It helps us to pick up a few out-of-conference wins (i.e. Villanova), but it isn't giving us Ivy titles. His recruiting has been middling, and the fit with his scheme is also middling. He hasn't put all of this pieces together in running a program, period. The kids seem fantastic and are playing hard for each other, so I am happy enough to watch games and pull for them whether we win or lose. This is closer to rooting for your kids' high school than it is to the SEC. We're adults, and we really should have more to get riled up about than Penn basketball, blaming kids, and calling for coaches to be fired.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Yale
02-04-24 07:36 PM - Post#362774
In response to Penndemonium
BTW, my apathy towards college sports comes from a variety of sources. Bad NCAA policy, conference realignment, cheating among programs, recruiting student athletes ahead of other gifted students, etc. But things are headed in a worse direction, IMO. As the power 5 turn into the Power 2 or 3, TV dollars are going to be more concentrated. Recruiting will vastly favor a handful of schools who provide substantial NIL. As tickets to high end games become scarce, undoubtedly pricing will go up. Schools won't settle for just the TV money. As player costs go up, so will ticket prices - even student tickets. Families won't be able to afford to go to great college games. This is professional sports, and frankly doesn't need to be affiliated with Universities anymore. These athletes will care very little about their university and the student body - they will rebid themselves in the transfer portal every year. My point is that I'll happily choose to watch local HS sports and mediocre Ivy sport so that I don't fund the beast of high-end college athletics. In the same way I don't berate HS players for underperforming, I'm not going to get too emotionally attached in criticizing true amateur athletes playing for the joy of sports and programs that enable that. There are better things to do. I'd rather be supportive - even though I still may pick at a few things like team free throw shooting and rebounding.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-04-24 08:38 PM - Post#362780
In response to nychoops
I may be the closest thing he has to a defender on here. I’d say he is a good man who has gotten the program back to a level where it is a clean, respectable, well-run program. That’s an achievement given the prior two coaches, who basically took a historically good program and quickly drove it into the ground both in terms of results and ethics.
We are far enough along into his tenure that I think it is fair to say that achievement, important as it is, may be as far as Steve can take us.
While your question is a fair one, I am not sure how relevant it is to the reality of Ivy basketball. It’s hard to get fired. Every current men’s coach has been in place for basically as long as Steve, and I believe 5 of them have worse records than Steve. You don’t get fired in this league unless you basically stop winning games entirely, or you commit a violation of some kind (or both).
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Penn90
Masters Student
Posts: 574
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-04-24 10:36 PM - Post#362786
In response to SomeGuy
Is it really a well-run program?
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-04-24 10:59 PM - Post#362791
In response to Penn90
I think so, at least compared to the prior two. Allen’s regime had an almost shocking level of disorganization, perhaps best evidenced by the botched trip to Europe. Now everything runs on time. That is a fairly low bar of course — most basketball teams are well run in this sense. But our prior two coaches were not doing a good job in this sense (for two very different reasons).
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-05-24 09:11 AM - Post#362794
In response to SomeGuy
I understand what you are saying but clearly well run does not include winning games. This is managerial malpractice if we continue down this path and nothing changes after the season. The clear message would be nothing to see here, don't waste your time and/or money rooting for this team.
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1st UP
Sophomore
Posts: 185
Loc: Denver
Reg: 11-11-09
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Re: Yale
02-05-24 09:24 AM - Post#362796
In response to Penndemonium
Amen! Amen!
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-05-24 01:50 PM - Post#362808
In response to 91Quake
Well, to be fair, it does include winning games. Just not enough games for most fans tastes. He’s actually got a .535 winning percentage at Penn, so he wins more than he loses. So a lot better than the prior two coaches. For whatever that’s worth.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32840
Reg: 11-21-04
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02-05-24 02:10 PM - Post#362809
In response to SomeGuy
Over the last 3 years since the pandemic, Penn is 38-41, and 5 of those wins are against D-3 teams and Hartford, which was dropping to D-3. And that was the team with Dingle, Slajcert, Martz, Monroe, Spinoso, Jelani, Lorca-Lloyd, Holland, etc. It's probably the deepest and best overall collection of talent Penn has had since Dunphy and his record is unacceptable with those guys.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Re: Yale
02-05-24 02:48 PM - Post#362815
In response to Penndemonium
Since I feel like this is directed at me all I will say is good for you but I disagree. I spend good money every year on this team and it has always been a passion of mine. Not all of us are in the same place as you on college athletics so the idea that those of us who do care should stay silent is just so condescending. The coach gets paid a pretty good amount to do this, does he not? For talking about “better things to do” you sure have a lot to say on it.
If we say nothing then the program dies. We are almost there now. To some that may be fine but to others it’s not. If you think our complaints are a feeble effort that’s fine, but we have no other options.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21212
Reg: 12-02-04
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Yale
02-05-24 07:34 PM - Post#362818
In response to palestra38
If this were Brown or Columbia or Dartmouth, this would be seen as a relative success.
But these are all schools that haven't won an Ivy title in, well, forever.
I could never see Princeton willing to leave things go this badly for anywhere near this long. Joe Scott was the rare failure (although they did come in 2nd during one of his seasons), but he only lasted 3 seasons.
While Ivy League basketball will probably never be dominated by the Penn-Princeton tandem anymore, expectations should nonetheless be higher for a school that for most of its history has been in its upper echelon.
Over the last 3 years since the pandemic, Penn is 38-41, and 5 of those wins are against D-3 teams and Hartford, which was dropping to D-3. And that was the team with Dingle, Slajcert, Martz, Monroe, Spinoso, Jelani, Lorca-Lloyd, Holland, etc. It's probably the deepest and best overall collection of talent Penn has had since Dunphy and his record is unacceptable with those guys.
Edited by penn nation on 02-05-24 07:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Re: Yale
02-05-24 09:18 PM - Post#362825
In response to Quakers03
I realize not everyone is in the same place on athletics and you're free to disagree. Keep in mind, I was a Penn athlete myself and care a ton about student-athletes. I just want to let them be student athletes who grow from their experiences, and I'm fed up with what the sports machine and militant fans have led us to.
Some examples of things that are crazy in university athletics right now... Pac10 (a perfectly fine athletics conference) being disbanded. Power 3 athletes (such as women's volleyball) flying cross country because of football. Florida State threatening to leave the ACC (the very conference that started the conference carnage), Schools being investigated for NIL violations right now when it is the complete Wild West. All coaches now begging their alumni for NIL money. College admissions and access at such ridiculously low levels. Colleges valuing TV contracts more than student experience and professor quality. Kids being groomed from elementary school to focus on one sport to get into colleges. The fact that Ivy athletes will essentially be Division II or III for practical purposes instead of having a broad playing field of schools. The list goes on. Who knows what Dartmouth's Athlete's Union will mean for sports.
You can call it condescending, but you can't say I care about athletics less than anyone else. My measures of success have changed. Your point of view is far more prevalent on this board and nationally than mine. Donahue can stay or go in my book. I'd rather he go in terms of competitiveness, but I'm fine with him staying if he runs a great program internally. I am not close enough to the program to know. Miller and Allen had to go.
Since I feel like this is directed at me all I will say is good for you but I disagree. I spend good money every year on this team and it has always been a passion of mine. Not all of us are in the same place as you on college athletics so the idea that those of us who do care should stay silent is just so condescending. The coach gets paid a pretty good amount to do this, does he not? For talking about “better things to do” you sure have a lot to say on it.
If we say nothing then the program dies. We are almost there now. To some that may be fine but to others it’s not. If you think our complaints are a feeble effort that’s fine, but we have no other options.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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02-05-24 10:40 PM - Post#362829
In response to Penndemonium
I have checked the KP O and D ratings for Penn and Yale, All commers and Ivy only, since Steves's arrival. Both programs play better d in the ivies lowing the KP efficiency score, Penn by 2.4 and Yale by 2.9.
On offense Penn's score worsens by 4.4 while Yale's score improves by 2.4, a net difference of 6.8. That is significant evidence that better scouting by Yale solves Penn's offense while it doesn't at Yale. Could be talent of coaching. Either way it is a indictment of the Penn program.
Watching the games I seems to me the Ivies take away Penn's threes without Penn making them pay by going to the hoop. And Penn is unable to take away Yale's approach. Coaching and talent again.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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02-06-24 12:52 AM - Post#362832
In response to UPIA1968
Nice work.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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02-06-24 06:46 PM - Post#362847
In response to UPIA1968
Interesting. My impression is that Steve tends to get the better of Jones head-to-head, at least in comparison to the overall talent level of the teams. Agreed though that teams in conference make it tougher on us. Harvard and Brown both struck me as extremely well prepared to defend us. They were doubling and seemed prepared for exactly where we would go with the ball when they did so.
Some of the Brown issue may have been the choice to go with the “Holland” offense, which seemed to coincide with a complete lack of assisted baskets. But some of it was Brown’s defense taking passes away.
Over the years under Steve we seem to fall into patterns where teams know we will do the high percentage reaction to how they defend us, which, while playing the percentages, makes us predictable.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Yale
02-06-24 07:31 PM - Post#362851
In response to SomeGuy
Let's see. Our offensive involves
1). high and loose picks by our guards and a lazy roll by our big men which does not really pull away a defender from the dribbler or create a threat of a break to the hoop. Why not tighter picks, more explosive cuts and rolls, and hard screens for the ball handler to shoot off of?
2. Getting a high entry to Spinoso, who will half-heartedly fake a pass to a near cutter, hoping for a backdoor cut from the corners. If he doesn't get it, he'll back down and throw his not so good looking baby hook into the hands of his defender and hope adding muscle will make it go in. He will neither lean in decisively enough to muscle the basket in or generate a clean shot by minimizing contact. He'll make a few, but not at high efficiency. His free throw shooting will allow the defender to play very aggressively.
3. If all fails, the ball will pop back out to Brown or Perkins who will take a step and launch a 3. They aren't bad shooters, though it isn't their perfect comfort zone.
Slajchert is the one player who could give our offense variety and an element of surprise. He is capable of slicing through the offense, pulling out, making mid-range pull-ups, leaning layups, or fading jumpers. These are difficult shots, but he was hitting them this year when he was in rhythm. A bit of unpredictability creates more open looks for other players. Players like Perkins and Brown are very promising, but don't have enough conviction yet to make their drives a high efficiency shot.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Yale
02-06-24 09:35 PM - Post#362855
In response to Penndemonium
The one thing I’ll add is that Clark is/was passing a lot better this year. So in addition to all the things he can do to shoot it, he was finding other guys as well. Hopefully we get that back soon.
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