GoQuakersGo
Sophomore
Posts: 119
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-24 11:03 PM - Post#364912
Steve Donahue:
8 seasons
1 Ivy title
4 seasons with losing record
3 Ivy seasons with losing record
Glen Miller:
3+ seasons (fired 7 games into 4th season)
1 Ivy title
2+ seasons with losing record (0-7 in year he was fired)
1 Ivy season with losing record (6-8 in 2008-09)
Is Steve really any better?
Steve had 2 all-time great players on his roster in 8 years (Brodeur, Dingle) and only turned that into 1 Ivy title (with 0 Ivy League tournament wins in every other season). His program is, if you are generous, a distant 3rd best in the league. Penn is closer to Brown and Cornell in stature than it is to Princeton and Yale.
If you are a talented recruit, why would you come to Penn over other top programs (in the Ivy League or elsewhere)? Is it to play in the always empty Palestra? Is it because this program was competitive a generation ago? Is it because Steve Donahue took a team to the Sweet 16 when today's recruits were in diapers?
I am sure Steve Donahue is a nice guy, but his track record and the outlook of this program are impossible to defend without conceding that you don't care about winning at the highest levels of the league, let alone nationally.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-09-24 11:47 PM - Post#364916
In response to GoQuakersGo
Penn Fan 10 said the following about this year's Quakers in another message thread:
<<Worst defensive college team I have seen in a long, long time. We don’t have a single player that can guard at a college level.>>
Here are the details:
1. 3-11 league record, tying for the worst Penn record since the Ivy League began.
2. The defense surrendered 1.15 points per possession over the 14 Ivy games. This is the worst defensive efficiency for an Ivy season since I began keeping these statistics for Chuck Daly in the 1971-1972 season.
3. On March 9, 2024, Penn gave up 105 points to Princeton in the Palestra. With 3:48 remaining in the game, Princeton essentially cleared its bench. As of that point, Penn's defense had surrendered 94 points in 59 possessions, or 1.59 points per possession.
4. As best as I can tell, surrendering 1.59 points per possession is not just the worst defense in an Ivy League game since I began keeping statistics. I believe it to be the worst defensive efficiency in any single Penn game, conference or non-conference, in my more than 50 years.
5. With respect to the previous statement, I have checked every Penn game starting with the 1992-93 season. That period includes famous blowout losses, at Kansas, at Arizona (to the eventual national champions), and, most particularly, the 114-55 loss at Duke on December 31, 2009, Jerome Allen's second game as head coach. To my knowledge, no Penn team has ever surrendered 1.59 points per possession in a game.
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SecS3
Junior
Posts: 246
Age: 75
Reg: 03-17-16
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03-10-24 01:03 AM - Post#364924
In response to Stuart Suss
In your defense, Princeton was insanely hot from three which may have skewed those numbers a bit. They were getting pretty good looks though.
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91Quake
PhD Student
Posts: 1126
Reg: 11-22-04
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03-10-24 08:53 AM - Post#364934
In response to SecS3
If you noticed, EVERY team is hot from 3 against our ineffective, toothless defense. Just a coincidence? Or do we give wide open looks that everyone takes advantage of? Seems to be a pattern.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21204
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-10-24 10:21 AM - Post#364939
In response to 91Quake
Well, based on their stats it's not likely that the Penn D would be able to defend SD, either.
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Streamers
Professor
Posts: 8254
Loc: NW Philadelphia
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-24 10:38 AM - Post#364943
In response to penn nation
<chuckle>
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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03-10-24 12:37 PM - Post#364959
In response to Streamers
More like SCORCH.
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Stuart Suss
PhD Student
Posts: 1439
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylva...
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-10-24 01:09 PM - Post#364963
In response to weinhauers_ghost
More details:
There are 362 Division 1 basketball teams. As of 1:00 pm EDT on Sunday, March 10, Penn has the same ranking in both Ken Pomeroy and in the NCAA Net rankings, 212 of 362.
The NCAA breaks down wins as to Quad 1, 2,3 or 4 based on the quality of the opponent and the location of the game (home, road or neutral). Penn won 11 games. Two of those eleven wins were against teams that are not at the Division 1 level. Of Penn’s 9 Division 1 wins, there was one Quad 2 win (a home win against a team ranked between 31 and 75), in Penn’s case a home win against #32 Villanova. Penn had one Quad 3 win (a road win against a team ranked between 135 and 240), in Penn’s case an overtime road win against #218 Rider. All of Penn’s seven remaining Division 1 wins were against teams in Quad 4, at the bottom of the NCAA rankings.
Additionally, Penn had two Quad 4 losses, at home to #204 Harvard and on the road to #351 Maryland Eastern Shore.
Returning to the Pomeroy rankings and Penn’s defense. Of the 362 Division 1 teams, Penn’s defensive efficiency was #321. Penn’s two point shooting percentage defense was #324. Penn’s three point shooting percentage defense was # 319. The combination of those two numbers is known as one’s effective field goal percentage defense. Penn’s ranking was #335.
On what percentage of possessions did Penn’s defense force a turnover? Ken Pomeroy breaks down turnovers into steals and non-steal turnovers (shot clock violations, walking, stepping out of bounds, 3 second or 5 second violations, etc. . .). Penn’s steal percentage was ranked #278. Penn’s non-steal defensive turnover percentage was ranked #357. Penn’s overall ranking for forcing turnovers was #338.
The average Division 1 team allows the opponent to attempt a three point field goal on 37.3% of the opponent’s total field goal attempts. Penn allowed a three point field goal attempt on 43.7% of its opponent’s total field goal attempts. Penn’s national ranking in this category was #345.
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UPIA1968
PhD Student
Posts: 1121
Loc: Cornwall, PA
Reg: 11-20-06
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03-10-24 01:26 PM - Post#364964
In response to Stuart Suss
Well said Stu.
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weinhauers_ghost
Postdoc
Posts: 2139
Age: 64
Loc: New York City
Reg: 12-14-09
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Can anyone defend Steve?
03-10-24 03:31 PM - Post#364976
In response to Stuart Suss
The stats back up the eye test: our defense was putrid this season.
One could make the case that the roster had a significant number of new players (two freshman starters, two other freshmen in and out of the rotation, a transfer also in and out of the rotation), and with the exception of one senior and two juniors, the returning players all lacked sufficient game experience.
This is all on the coaching staff. I think the players were just not put in a position that was likely to result in collective success.
Edited by weinhauers_ghost on 03-10-24 03:32 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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mshimmy
Sophomore
Posts: 193
Loc: Miami, FL
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Can anyone defend Steve?
03-10-24 05:35 PM - Post#364983
In response to GoQuakersGo
If you are a talented recruit, why would you come to Penn over other top programs (in the Ivy League or elsewhere)? Is it to play in the always empty Palestra? Is it because this program was competitive a generation ago?
Out of curiosity for those local or on campus, is there any push whatsoever to get people to games?
For example, I know the team was much better, but prior to opening night 02-03 vs Penn State, Dunphy held a Q&A with the Red and Blue Crew. There were free pregame cheesesteaks on Locust Walk if you showed a game ticket, and the students walked behind the band to the Palestra.
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
Posts: 336
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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03-10-24 06:03 PM - Post#364985
In response to mshimmy
I guess the answer to the question posed by the thread is "no"
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3618
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Can anyone defend Steve?
03-10-24 07:40 PM - Post#364991
In response to GoQuakersGo
Steve Donahue:
8 seasons
1 Ivy title
4 seasons with losing record
3 Ivy seasons with losing record
Glen Miller:
3+ seasons (fired 7 games into 4th season)
1 Ivy title
2+ seasons with losing record (0-7 in year he was fired)
1 Ivy season with losing record (6-8 in 2008-09)
Is Steve really any better?
Steve had 2 all-time great players on his roster in 8 years (Brodeur, Dingle) and only turned that into 1 Ivy title (with 0 Ivy League tournament wins in every other season). His program is, if you are generous, a distant 3rd best in the league. Penn is closer to Brown and Cornell in stature than it is to Princeton and Yale.
If you are a talented recruit, why would you come to Penn over other top programs (in the Ivy League or elsewhere)? Is it to play in the always empty Palestra? Is it because this program was competitive a generation ago? Is it because Steve Donahue took a team to the Sweet 16 when today's recruits were in diapers?
I am sure Steve Donahue is a nice guy, but his track record and the outlook of this program are impossible to defend without conceding that you don't care about winning at the highest levels of the league, let alone nationally.
The answer is NO.
You forgot:
- 0 Top 100 Teams in 8 seasons
- 0-11 against Princeton the last 6 years (I have a 6 year old kindergartener born shortly after the last Penn win).
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