Anonymous
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02-05-05 01:56 AM - Post#3283
JT3 took a lot of hits for bending the Tigers system--sometimes almost beyond recognition--but witnessing his new Georgetown team and old Princeton team move in such dramatically different directions you have to conclude the guy is a great coach.
Thompson always found a way to win the close league games. He got the most out of his team by thoughtful (which sometimes seemed borderline eccentric) substitutions. He stoked his players' confidence the way his old man did.
Scott seems to have destroyed what confidence this team had in ttself. How do you throw away a 9 point lead to Dartmouth in 4 minutes and lose by 8?
He needs to do some real soul searching about the way he is handling the reins and make some changes or things could get really ugly the way they did in the mid 1980s when Carril's temperment became unbearable and the program wobbled for a few years (ironically Scott was a player then).
I still think this team is capable of pulling it together and winning out but they can't do it without some serious mid-season corrections.
Go Tigers!
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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After Further Consideration
02-05-05 03:06 AM - Post#3284
In response to
That post-season Ivy tournament sounds pretty good!
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puck
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 04:07 AM - Post#3285
In response to
I've heard comments from some of the players about Thompson and player comments about Scot. The comments about JT111 were candid assessments; friendly, warm, relaxed. What was said about Scot was filled with anger, bitterness, frustration. I've gone to most of the away games and all the home games. What I see is, sometimes, a reluctance to take the shot because they're terrified. I've sat directly behind Scot and have watched his face contort, listened to his screaming player's names, his comments, and watched him in-their-faces when they've come off-court. Even I was exhausted by halftime. We've won games where players left the court uncertain and unsure. Team body-language says it all. Scot has to back-off. He's ruining it for these students who come out to play and love the game. Some of the seniors can't wait to finish this season...so they can get on with their lives. Joe Scot, wake up!
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puck
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII and Joe ScoTT
02-05-05 04:21 AM - Post#3286
In response to puck
I'm sorry Joe Scot, for withholding your 2nd T.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 04:48 AM - Post#3287
In response to puck
You have it right. I have always given to Friends of PU BBall. But not next year unless Scott changes his very ugly ways.
Bob Medina
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 05:29 AM - Post#3288
In response to bobmed
Before you get too excited, remember that JT III has a loss to Dartmouth on his resume as well. February 2001.
You might also remember that PU won the Ivy that year. Have faith, kids. You weren't expecting this, but Penn might have something unexpected waiting for them somewhere down the road. Odds go against it being tomorrow night, but I wouldn't expect this Penn team to run the table or anything.
-The Ghost
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 11:14 AM - Post#3289
In response to puck
My observations are the same. I am strongly tempted to give away the rest of my season tickets, not because of the record or prospects, but because I can't stand watching Joe brutalize his players.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32848
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 11:38 AM - Post#3290
In response to Rob
Rob....a scant 5 weeks ago, you had this to say about Princeton's coach and fans:
"We continue to be hoping for progess on offense, but we are (mostly)very confident in our coach. Joe's offenses are different from John's, the reads are not simple, two freshmen have been starting, etc. Unlike a number of Penn fans, we(mostly)don't assume there are things we can see that our coach can't."
While I'm not going to pile on with respect to your comment about Penn fans, methinks your current observations might have more to do with a couple of painful losses than any dramatic change in coaching philosophy from 12/30. My opinion is only that Penn fans and Princeton fans are a lot more alike than you admit.
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 01:08 PM - Post#3291
In response to palestra38
Maybe its time for Howard Levy to step up and talk to Scott. It seemed like the coaches were a very close unit last few years. I have not been to any games so haven't witnessed the body language between coaches but is a lack of cohesiveness among the coaches part of the problem? I'm just grasping at straws here.
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1LotteryPick1969
Postdoc
Posts: 2277
Age: 73
Loc: Sandy, Utah
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 01:33 PM - Post#3292
In response to
I could not agree with you more. The three games I saw last year compared to the two I have seen this year, it is like watching two different teams. All the players except Venable seem hesitant and fearful. The other maddening aspect is that as the clock winds down, there is absolutely no midrange game, resulting in very poor shooting opportunities, something that plagued the Carrill teams as well. I thought JTIII was a gifted coach. Maybe JS will evolve to a more effective style, or maybe he will recruit players amenable to his current style, but I REALLY feal for the current team. I think they had a chance to have a special season, but it appears it will be mediocre at best.
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puck
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 03:17 PM - Post#3293
In response to
I don't know how true it is or to what degree but I heard, this morning, that Shirley Tilghman is very concerned about Joe Scott's alleged treatment of the student-players and she's beside herself on how this should be handled (if true). Gary Walters, the director of Athletics, has much to explain if this continues and get's out to the media. This could effect recruitment for the future and even attitudes about student-life, in general, as rediculous as that might seem. Joe Scott take a cold shower and please get some help! It's not too late for everyone concerned to learn from this, come together, and turn this season around...now.
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 04:12 PM - Post#3294
In response to puck
Isn't it possible that this team is suffering cause Wallace is hurting and Schaen isn't with them? In the end it's the players who win or lose, not Scott.
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light blue heavy
maximus
Posts: 164
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 04:19 PM - Post#3295
In response to
agreed RnB, I think we have a little fundamental attribution error going on here. Seriously: the talent level is way down from last year, with Wallace and Logan not at 100% and Shaen gone. Do you think Wallace fouls out in 17 minutes if he's healthy? I don't.
JTIII was one of the best in-game coaches around, and 14-0 might not have been a realistic goal. This team is really struggling, but I wouldnt put all the blame on scott. too many other things are going on.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 05:55 PM - Post#3296
In response to palestra38
P38, let me just say the earlier comments you quote focused on the offense. The current comment to which you are responding has nothing to do with the offense, or the loss. I was talking about Joe's abuse of his players, which was no less awful in the win over Yale than in the loss to Brown.
I find it hard to believe you can't accept the accuracy of my references to Penn fans who constantly criticise Dunphy regarding his failure to run more, failure to use the leapers more, etc. I think it was reasonable to say that Princeton fans do that sort of thing much less. Do you disagree?
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32848
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 07:13 PM - Post#3297
In response to Rob
Rob, if you asked me 2 weeks ago, I would have agreed with you unquestionably. However, in light of the scathing criticism of Scott emanating from the Princeton supporters after a couple of losses, when presumably Scott is coaching the same way he was a few weeks ago (btw, that was the point of my quoting your 12/30 post), I think a lot of it has to do with losing. You don't see nearly as much criticism of Dunphy when Penn wins the league.
I think since Princeton fans fully expected to win the league this year, there is a degree of shock at the 2 early losses that is causing people to lash out at the coach.
By the way, this is not meant to comment either way on Scott's relationship with his players.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 07:57 PM - Post#3298
In response to palestra38
You persist in telling me what my motives are. Don't. You know next to nothing about the current situation.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 08:00 PM - Post#3299
In response to
It is not about winning and losing. It is about abuse.
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 08:19 PM - Post#3300
In response to Rob
I have to say I'm very nervous about the statements being bandied about here. We have a couple of people alleging that Joe Scott is behaving unprofessionally and unethically by abusing his players (if he is indeed "abusing" them this is unprofessional and unethical). Now we have the unsubstantiated claim that Tilghman is "beside herself" over this.
In my view, this is a bit over the top. Given this is an anonymous bulletin board, I think we should be careful about accepting every rumor and accusation as fact. Let's not smear a coach's reputation without having a full and accurate understanding of the situation.
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 08:33 PM - Post#3301
In response to Rob
Rob, let's be fair here. P38 said nothing about your motive(s). The situation is quite simple -- no one, including you, has commented on this board in any negative way about Joe Scott until this Dartmouth loss. At minimum, it is odd that Scott seems to be held on a pedestal until he loses one game he should have won. Did he suddenly become a bad coach? Of course not.
With respect to his relationships with his players, did they suddenly change last night in Hanover? It would be hard to believe.
The apparent truth is Princeton fans are equally willing to criticize their coach as Penn fans. The difference is that we do it all the time, win or lose, while you guys only do it when you lose. And boy do you do it when you lose!
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 09:16 PM - Post#3302
In response to TigerDave
Nervous isn't the word. Appalled might be a better adjective. Like rats escaping a sinking ship.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 09:43 PM - Post#3303
In response to
Actually, that is exactly what he did, twice, and what you and other non-Princeton fans have done. I won't speculate regarding your motives, but you are saying the timing of our comments suggests the Dartmouth loss is what is motivating us to criticise Joe.
But if you reread all the Princeton fan postings, what you see is a consistent concern with Joe's yelling at the players, not the outcome or recent outcomes.
There are bigger issues here than the current Ivy race.
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SFlaQuaker
Postdoc
Posts: 2427
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 09:47 PM - Post#3304
In response to Rob
I didn't really see it at all until last weekend and the Brown loss. Also, there's a very big difference between criticizing Dunphy's coaching or the play of certain guys and alleging abuse.
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 09:49 PM - Post#3305
In response to Rob
Ok, please point out instances after victories where these reservations were expressed. Multiple posters would help. Bottom line of course is that you're saying you know better than your coach, offense, defense, attitude, whateva.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 10:41 PM - Post#3306
In response to TigerDave
I, for one, sign my name. I believe that Scott and Scott alone has destroyed this team's confidence. The constant harranging and negative inputs have run their course. Example, at the end of the Yale game, Owings fouled a 3 point shooter. This was his 5th foul. You could hear Scott yelling at Owings from the top of the arena for almost the full minute. Bobby Knight would have blushed. Ask any of the players about their reaction to Scott. He should go and go soon.
Bob Medina PU62
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-05-05 10:56 PM - Post#3307
In response to bobmed
Bob,
What is the basis of your assertion that he players want to see Joe go? Have you talked players? Isn't it possible that they have not been asked to perform to the level of their abilities in the past and aren't used to being held as accountable? Isn't it possible that they are not as mentally tough as they need to be to succeed at a higher level? Are we at the point where two losses are too much to suffer to actually improve? Are we in such a political correct period that you can't criticize anyone anymore?
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:31 AM - Post#3308
In response to
Well, Bob, I was sitting quite near the bench and I heard Scott yell at Owings after that foul. However, I didn't think it was the Bobby Knight tirade that you claim. Frankly, it didn't seem that big a deal (and it was a dumb foul).
You're entitled to your opinion. I just don't buy that Joe is the monster you claim he is. Further, I don't think spreading these kind of things around the internet is going to help the program. If he is what you say, let the AD and the PU administration deal with it.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:44 AM - Post#3309
In response to
let's see - to the first question - yes, I have talked to the player's parents. Most of the rest are NO. And the last is I do not feel that is political uncorrect to say that Scott is not the proper coach.
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bobmed
Sophomore
Posts: 129
Loc: Skillman, NJ
Reg: 09-03-02
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:45 AM - Post#3310
In response to TigerDave
I hope they do just that
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TomPittsburgh
maximus
Posts: 538
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Reg: 11-28-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 12:57 AM - Post#3311
In response to bobmed
Another loss -- this time to Harvard. This takes a lot of the gloss away from Tuesday night's game.
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Anonymous
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 01:27 AM - Post#3312
In response to bobmed
Have you actually talked to the players? Which parents have you talked to? Starters or players who aren't getting the time they want? What specifically have they said? When did they start saying these things?
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-06-05 01:37 PM - Post#3313
In response to
In the end, I don't see the wisdom in going down this road of rumors, allegations, recriminations, and the like. No matter who Bob or puck or whomever say they've talked to, it is impossible to know whether what is said is true and/or whether it represents the point of view of everyone on the team.
Remember, there were players who didn't like Bill Carmody & JTIII and ended up leaving the team. Transitions can be difficult and personalities sometimes clash. I don't begrudge people the right to criticize a coach. But there is a difference between criticism and trying to smear his reputation and destroy his career.
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puck
newbie
Posts: 10
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: New respect for JTIII
02-07-05 09:14 AM - Post#3314
In response to TigerDave
TigerDave, I think you're right. I'm not comfortable now, having posted hearsay. I'm not in the locker room, I don't know what the reality is off-court. Those people close to the situation know what's going on, and if Scott has exceeded himself, know what to do. Thank you for reminding me about Conrad Wysocki's dilemma and that, true, sometimes personallities clash. Things can appear one way...but, not otherwise, be the case. This is not a proper forum and anybody can say what they want...that's a danger. Out here we can't know all the facts; what's really going on. The team, and Scott, deserve the benefit of doubt. We should criticise...but be oh so careful on where we go. I seem to remember a play by Lillian Hellman that talks, in a way, to this. I am guilty of crossing the line...and I want to step back. I read Sunday's postings and it gives me pause.
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Anonymous
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ummm...
02-07-05 02:08 PM - Post#3315
In response to puck
who said anything about Konrad Wysocki?
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Anonymous
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Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 08:29 PM - Post#3316
In response to
This season has been disappointing but I'm not ready to throw Joe Scott under the bus. Let us recall at this point last year, people were bemoaning the Un-Princeton like way the Tigers played under JTIII and saying that Air Force ran the most classic Princeton system in the country. As for Joe Scott screaming at his players - A coach that screams and wins is a "motivator" - a coach that screams and loses is considered a jerk. I don't think Joe is the second coming of Armond Hill, and let's not forget JTIII didn't "abuse" his players verbally, but he was beset with lots of rumors of unhappy players and defections. Martin, Logan, Wysocki, Venable and Persia all left, tried to leave or were rumored to have wanted to leave. So it is not like PU was a bunch of happy campers under JTIII.
Yet he won, so his lack of orthodoxy to the system and the unhappy players were excused. While I like JTIII and the way he coaches - making adjustments and playing the matchups - historically that has not been the Princeton way - PU teams have usually focused more on doing what Princeton does well. I got the feeling that JTIII using the advantage of superior athleticism that he had within the league made Princeton better in the league but worse outside of it. I never felt any of his teams could make noise in the postseason. So, in what may be a big time rationalization, I think what Scott is trying to do may work out better in the long run.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 09:23 PM - Post#3317
In response to
I'm sure you guys don't need/want more Penn guys piling on with comments, but . . .. What I don't understand about what seems to be going on with Scott and Princeton is that getting better in the long run doesn't necessarily need to preclude taking advantage of the team that is there and won last year. Penn fans harp on whether or not Dunphy adjusts to the strengths of his personnel. Here, Scott already had a pretty good blueprint from last year. Why does developing the kind of team you want preclude trying to win for a year in a less strict system? The comments holding Savage out as the one guy he knows won't quit do kind of give a sense of where Scott's focus seems to be. Is it that damaging to his control or ability to ultimately develop the team he wants to just go ahead and stick more closely to what JTIII did?
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: ummm...
02-07-05 10:18 PM - Post#3318
In response to
Quote:
who said anything about Konrad Wysocki?
That was implied in the continuing "We can't think of any way to defend Scott, so let's suggest that JTIII had comparable problems" line of the apologists.
It is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Wysocki had three good years as a contributor off the bench behind Walton/Logan, Martin (though Konrad played more minutes), and Wallace. As with most players, he wanted to be a starter and may have felt he was unappreciated. He started at the beginning of his senior year, had a few good offensive games, but did not meet JTIII's expectations defending or rebounding. Logan came back from injury about the time Wysocki got some illness and missed a few games. Logan took his starting spot while he was out, but it probably would have happened anyway. After exam break, Wysocki was back and healthy, but in early league play, he dropped behind Schaen, again because JTIII wanted defense and rebounding. Konrad quit the team about a year ago after JTIII did not play him at all at Yale. It was too bad that his career ended that way, but those things happen.
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Anonymous
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 10:36 PM - Post#3319
In response to SomeGuy
Quote:
Why does developing the kind of team you want preclude trying to win for a year in a less strict system? The comments holding Savage out as the one guy he knows won't quit do kind of give a sense of where Scott's focus seems to be. Is it that damaging to his control or ability to ultimately develop the team he wants to just go ahead and stick more closely to what JTIII did?
Perhaps that is easier said than done. Joe Scott has been successful doing it his way - and I suppose he felt he could be successful doing it his way with these guys. And I suppose you could say he could have reasonably thought it was working ok during the pre-league schedule. No one really felt PU underperformed significantly in the non-conference games, and certainly not to the extent that would have suggested this collapse.
Even now, if your Scott what do you do? With the league basically out of hand, do you post up Venable, crash the boards, run and gun a bit? Or do you try to develop the younger players in the style you expect to be playing for the next few years.
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Anonymous
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-07-05 11:56 PM - Post#3320
In response to
I tend to agree with you. I think scott is looking further down the road about the kind of team & players he wants long term. I think he wouuld have loved to come back, win the Ivy League, get to the Dance and so forth during the transition but I think he has higher aspirations for the team and is going to do it his way with his kind of players.
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 12:01 AM - Post#3321
In response to
Actually, the point was that coaching transitions sometimes create problems with players beyond even the normal ones. The problem with "defections" (think of Baah, Gloger, Krug, Martin, McLaughlin, Wysocki, almost Logan, etc.) at Princeton over a number of years has been well-documented and widely debated. This is not the imagination of so-called Scott "apologists."
Again, go ahead and criticize Scott all you want. He deserves some. As I said previously, I think he has botched this transition and made a number of tactical mistakes. He also has probably been too critical of his players at times, especially in public. But I don't think serious allegations of unprofessional or unethical behavior (i.e. abuse of players) are either warranted or justifiable. Those who think they have information that does warrant such allegations should do the responsible thing and not air them on the internet but bring them forward to the proper authorities.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 10:20 AM - Post#3322
In response to TigerDave
TigerDave, Gary Walters has been watching the same home games I have, two sections over, and he presumably hears or reads what Scott says to the press. So what would you have me forward to him?
And what is "irresponsible" about commenting on what thousands have also seen? I am not discussing rumor or inuendo, just what is in plain sight.
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 03:28 PM - Post#3323
In response to Rob
Well, if you have concluded from watching home games that Scott's behavior is unprofessional and unethical, then you should express this to Walters or whomever you think appropriate. Personally, as someone who has attended every home game except one and sits very near to the bench, I don't know how anyone concludes this merely from watching home games. I have attended games with many of the same people for many years (many of them on the faculty or staff of PU) and none of them has drawn such a conclusion.
As I've said, it is one thing to think he yells too much or is too critical. It is another thing to allege "abuse" to the level that it requires disciplinary action or his dismissal. These kinds of serious allegations I do believe are "irresponsible" in that they demand a higher standard of evidence due to what is at stake.
Quote:
TigerDave, Gary Walters has been watching the same home games I have, two sections over, and he presumably hears or reads what Scott says to the press. So what would you have me forward to him?
And what is "irresponsible" about commenting on what thousands have also seen? I am not discussing rumor or inuendo, just what is in plain sight.
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Brian Martin
Masters Student
Posts: 963
Loc: Washington, DC
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 03:31 PM - Post#3324
In response to TigerDave
What do a few players leaving over the JTIII years, most due to lack of playing time, have to do with this Princeton team starting the Ivy season 1-3 with 4 seniors, including 2 All-Ivy first-teamers, returning from a 13-1 champion?
What does Scott's publicly humiliating and blaming his players have to do with JTIII's treatment of any of the players you cited?
If you want to defend Scott, defend him. Comparing him to JTIII is hurting your case.
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Rob
maximus
Posts: 327
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 04:05 PM - Post#3325
In response to TigerDave
I certainly haven't said anything about dismissal or disciplinary action. Where did you get that red herring?
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 05:21 PM - Post#3326
In response to Brian Martin
If you read my previous post carefully, you will see that I was making a point about coaching transitions and the problems they sometimes create with players. I gave a list of a number of players who left the program for some reason under JT3. Believe when I say I'm a big fan of JT3 and was sad to see him go. I'm not attacking him in any way. It is just a matter of fact that there can be difficulties when there are coaching transitions. This may have to do with differences in style, with decisions by different coaches on PT, with regard to player expectations based on recruiting or on the previous coach's choices, etc.
Quote:
What do a few players leaving over the JTIII years, most due to lack of playing time, have to do with this Princeton team starting the Ivy season 1-3 with 4 seniors, including 2 All-Ivy first-teamers, returning from a 13-1 champion?
What does Scott's publicly humiliating and blaming his players have to do with JTIII's treatment of any of the players you cited?
If you want to defend Scott, defend him. Comparing him to JTIII is hurting your case.
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TigerDave
goober
Posts: 61
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Perspective on Scott
02-08-05 05:40 PM - Post#3327
In response to Rob
It has been alleged by you in a previous post that Scott "brutalizes" his players. It has been alleged by others that Scott is abusive to his players. It has also been alleged that his behavior is worse than Bobby Knight's. It has been alleged that the President of PU is "beside herself" over his conduct. If these things are true, would it not require that Scott be disciplined or dismissed?
Again, to repeat myself, I think it is irresponsible to make public allegations of serious misconduct (which in my book would include brutality, abuse, or Bobby Knight-like behavior) without being very, very certain. This is a man's career and livelihood that we are talking about.
Quote:
I certainly haven't said anything about dismissal or disciplinary action. Where did you get that red herring?
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