JHG722
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 07-07-11
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01-20-18 05:41 PM - Post#244230
In response to Penndemonium
We're universally hoping this is the end. With our facilities, dedication, and history, there is no excuse for zero Sweet Sixteens in 12 years.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-20-18 05:48 PM - Post#244232
In response to JHG722
Well being in a crappy, few natural rivalries, football first conference doesn’t help.
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JHG722
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 07-07-11
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01-20-18 06:09 PM - Post#244241
In response to Chip Bayers
Well being in a crappy, few natural rivalries, football first conference doesn’t help.
Rivalries is accurate. Rest of your post is inaccurate. It's a very good conference that deserves a lot more respect than it gets. Playing Fordham and Duquesne got us nowhere. Playing Kent State and Buffalo got us nowhere.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-20-18 06:18 PM - Post#244245
In response to JHG722
We're universally hoping this is the end. With our facilities, dedication, and history, there is no excuse for zero Sweet Sixteens in 12 years.
Like I said: "It a tricky job, as Temple has higher expectations than perhaps they should feel entitled to going forward."
No disrespect to Temple - I know it had a lot of success in the Chaney era. It just isn't a school which has all cylinders of an athletics franchise to have such huge expectations. It is similar (but inferior) to Georgetown in that respect. They both had huge success but accomplished it with superior recruiting and the personality and will of their coaches. Neither has a program that would routinely draw the very best without that.
You can blame Dunphy for that, but times have changed. Having a head coach who cares deeply about his players, runs their program ethically, and builds the trust of families to mentor and educate recruits is not as much of a differentiator as it used to be. There are so many coaches that offer that now, and I don't think any coaches in Div I have that as their iconic brand the way Chaney and Thompson did.
Philadelphia is still a talent rich area, but it isn't retaining its recruits the way it did in bygone eras. Recruiting is a national game.
Maybe Temple can become a perennial power again, but I won't predict seeing them in the top 20 very often from here - with or without Dunphy.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-20-18 06:21 PM - Post#244247
In response to JHG722
It’s a conference built around football, yet filled with members that have always been basketball-first: Temple, UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Tulsa and now Wichita State. It’s ridiculous.
Temple never played basketball in the MAC, so citing those schools only proves my point.
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JHG722
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 07-07-11
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01-20-18 06:56 PM - Post#244254
In response to Penndemonium
We're universally hoping this is the end. With our facilities, dedication, and history, there is no excuse for zero Sweet Sixteens in 12 years.
Like I said: "It a tricky job, as Temple has higher expectations than perhaps they should feel entitled to going forward."
No disrespect to Temple - I know it had a lot of success in the Chaney era. It just isn't a school which has all cylinders of an athletics franchise to have such huge expectations. It is similar (but inferior) to Georgetown in that respect. They both had huge success but accomplished it with superior recruiting and the personality and will of their coaches. Neither has a program that would routinely draw the very best without that.
You can blame Dunphy for that, but times have changed. Having a head coach who cares deeply about his players, runs their program ethically, and builds the trust of families to mentor and educate recruits is not as much of a differentiator as it used to be. There are so many coaches that offer that now, and I don't think any coaches in Div I have that as their iconic brand the way Chaney and Thompson did.
Philadelphia is still a talent rich area, but it isn't retaining its recruits the way it did in bygone eras. Recruiting is a national game.
Maybe Temple can become a perennial power again, but I won't predict seeing them in the top 20 very often from here - with or without Dunphy.
This is so laughably ignorant it makes my head hurt. It's the same loser mentality they have at Penn, which I know all too well. Is making the Sweet Sixteen once in 12 years higher expectations than we should be 'entitled' to? No one is expecting Temple to win championships, but is it too much to ask to be in that realm once in 12 years? No.
There is nothing conceivably better about Villanova other than being in a suburban (read: sterile) environment.
Our facilities are top-notch, which is why NBA teams use them when they are here. Jason Kidd stopped by to talk to our players after practice. That doesn't happen at many places around the country.
I'm sick of the loser mentality people have about/for Temple. There is no reason we cannot be great in football and basketball. Dunphy is not the person to get us there. Being a nice guy who recruits good people who graduate isn't good enough in 2018.
I aspire for Temple to achieve greatness and so does everyone else here.
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JHG722
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 07-07-11
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01-20-18 06:58 PM - Post#244255
In response to Chip Bayers
It’s a conference built around football, yet filled with members that have always been basketball-first: Temple, UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Tulsa and now Wichita State. It’s ridiculous.
Temple never played basketball in the MAC, so citing those schools only proves my point.
You obviously don't get this, do you?
We're housed in one conference, which is everyone's goal. No one wants to be in one conference for basketball and one conference for football. Playing in the MAC did nothing for us, and would do nothing for us now. The A10 is dying, which is why all the better programs left. VCU isn't even anything special now. How in the hell would we be better off beating a bunch of nobodies in the A10 now?
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-20-18 07:17 PM - Post#244256
In response to JHG722
I'm a Dunphy fan, but he has struggled with a few recruiting classes before this frosh class and the last few seasons they've really fallen off. This year is a disappointment so far with the talent on the roster so I understand the Temple fans.
If they don't make a miraculous recovering and find their ways into the NCAAs, then it seems like the end to me.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-20-18 09:25 PM - Post#244261
In response to Mike Porter
So not only is he in dreamland, he's a dick too. About right. Temple had a sweet sixteen chance...they lost to Penn's current coach. Wow guys! Jason Kidd spoke to the team!! Let the recruits pour into beautiful North Philly.
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Big R&B Truth
Masters Student
Posts: 427
Loc: Back Waters of New Englan...
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-20-18 09:36 PM - Post#244264
In response to JHG722
It’s a conference built around football, yet filled with members that have always been basketball-first: Temple, UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Tulsa and now Wichita State. It’s ridiculous.
Temple never played basketball in the MAC, so citing those schools only proves my point.
You obviously don't get this, do you?
We're housed in one conference, which is everyone's goal. No one wants to be in one conference for basketball and one conference for football. Playing in the MAC did nothing for us, and would do nothing for us now. The A10 is dying, which is why all the better programs left. VCU isn't even anything special now. How in the hell would we be better off beating a bunch of nobodies in the A10 now?
You should ask Gonzaga if they are better off beating a bunch of nobodies.
Temple is in a better conference which exactly is its problem, and so I totally agree with you on Dunphy. He was a great Ivy League coach, and perhaps he would find great success at LaSalle. Yet despite having some really talented teams, he never could take Penn to the next level such as the way Amaker has at Harvard. Temple needs someone younger and more dynamic.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-21-18 01:24 PM - Post#244316
In response to JHG722
We're universally hoping this is the end. With our facilities, dedication, and history, there is no excuse for zero Sweet Sixteens in 12 years.
Like I said: "It a tricky job, as Temple has higher expectations than perhaps they should feel entitled to going forward."
No disrespect to Temple - I know it had a lot of success in the Chaney era. It just isn't a school which has all cylinders of an athletics franchise to have such huge expectations. It is similar (but inferior) to Georgetown in that respect. They both had huge success but accomplished it with superior recruiting and the personality and will of their coaches. Neither has a program that would routinely draw the very best without that.
You can blame Dunphy for that, but times have changed. Having a head coach who cares deeply about his players, runs their program ethically, and builds the trust of families to mentor and educate recruits is not as much of a differentiator as it used to be. There are so many coaches that offer that now, and I don't think any coaches in Div I have that as their iconic brand the way Chaney and Thompson did.
Philadelphia is still a talent rich area, but it isn't retaining its recruits the way it did in bygone eras. Recruiting is a national game.
Maybe Temple can become a perennial power again, but I won't predict seeing them in the top 20 very often from here - with or without Dunphy.
This is so laughably ignorant it makes my head hurt. It's the same loser mentality they have at Penn, which I know all too well. Is making the Sweet Sixteen once in 12 years higher expectations than we should be 'entitled' to? No one is expecting Temple to win championships, but is it too much to ask to be in that realm once in 12 years? No.
There is nothing conceivably better about Villanova other than being in a suburban (read: sterile) environment.
Our facilities are top-notch, which is why NBA teams use them when they are here. Jason Kidd stopped by to talk to our players after practice. That doesn't happen at many places around the country.
I'm sick of the loser mentality people have about/for Temple. There is no reason we cannot be great in football and basketball. Dunphy is not the person to get us there. Being a nice guy who recruits good people who graduate isn't good enough in 2018.
I aspire for Temple to achieve greatness and so does everyone else here.
The message that proves the point that you over-estimate Temple's natural (coach aside) place in the current basketball world. How fantastic that you don't have a loser's mentality. I'm not trying to insult Temple. I just think it's a tougher sell for recruits who have more and better options than you think.
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Silver Maple
Postdoc
Posts: 3781
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-21-18 02:22 PM - Post#244324
In response to Penndemonium
The world is not Lake Woebegon. Not everybody can be above average. This is not to say the Temple is doomed to mediocrity, but to say the 'there's no reason Temple cannot be great' in basketball is ignoring a number of important facts. There are a bunch of reasons. It is certainly possible for Temple to rise above those reasons and achieve greatness, but don't pretend the barriers don't exist.
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JHG722
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 07-07-11
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01-21-18 05:20 PM - Post#244332
In response to Penndemonium
We're universally hoping this is the end. With our facilities, dedication, and history, there is no excuse for zero Sweet Sixteens in 12 years.
Like I said: "It a tricky job, as Temple has higher expectations than perhaps they should feel entitled to going forward."
No disrespect to Temple - I know it had a lot of success in the Chaney era. It just isn't a school which has all cylinders of an athletics franchise to have such huge expectations. It is similar (but inferior) to Georgetown in that respect. They both had huge success but accomplished it with superior recruiting and the personality and will of their coaches. Neither has a program that would routinely draw the very best without that.
You can blame Dunphy for that, but times have changed. Having a head coach who cares deeply about his players, runs their program ethically, and builds the trust of families to mentor and educate recruits is not as much of a differentiator as it used to be. There are so many coaches that offer that now, and I don't think any coaches in Div I have that as their iconic brand the way Chaney and Thompson did.
Philadelphia is still a talent rich area, but it isn't retaining its recruits the way it did in bygone eras. Recruiting is a national game.
Maybe Temple can become a perennial power again, but I won't predict seeing them in the top 20 very often from here - with or without Dunphy.
This is so laughably ignorant it makes my head hurt. It's the same loser mentality they have at Penn, which I know all too well. Is making the Sweet Sixteen once in 12 years higher expectations than we should be 'entitled' to? No one is expecting Temple to win championships, but is it too much to ask to be in that realm once in 12 years? No.
There is nothing conceivably better about Villanova other than being in a suburban (read: sterile) environment.
Our facilities are top-notch, which is why NBA teams use them when they are here. Jason Kidd stopped by to talk to our players after practice. That doesn't happen at many places around the country.
I'm sick of the loser mentality people have about/for Temple. There is no reason we cannot be great in football and basketball. Dunphy is not the person to get us there. Being a nice guy who recruits good people who graduate isn't good enough in 2018.
I aspire for Temple to achieve greatness and so does everyone else here.
The message that proves the point that you over-estimate Temple's natural (coach aside) place in the current basketball world. How fantastic that you don't have a loser's mentality. I'm not trying to insult Temple. I just think it's a tougher sell for recruits who have more and better options than you think.
Rrrrrright. Which is why Temple Football players have turned down offers from schools like Vandy, Northwestern, Michigan State, Alabama, Boston College, Virginia, UNC, etc. in the last few years.
Tough sell my butt.
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JHG722
Freshman
Posts: 62
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Reg: 07-07-11
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01-21-18 05:21 PM - Post#244333
In response to Quakers03
So not only is he in dreamland, he's a dick too. About right. Temple had a sweet sixteen chance...they lost to Penn's current coach. Wow guys! Jason Kidd spoke to the team!! Let the recruits pour into beautiful North Philly.
Yeah, because West Philly is Malibu, right?
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-21-18 08:08 PM - Post#244342
In response to JHG722
We're universally hoping this is the end. With our facilities, dedication, and history, there is no excuse for zero Sweet Sixteens in 12 years.
Like I said: "It a tricky job, as Temple has higher expectations than perhaps they should feel entitled to going forward."
No disrespect to Temple - I know it had a lot of success in the Chaney era. It just isn't a school which has all cylinders of an athletics franchise to have such huge expectations. It is similar (but inferior) to Georgetown in that respect. They both had huge success but accomplished it with superior recruiting and the personality and will of their coaches. Neither has a program that would routinely draw the very best without that.
You can blame Dunphy for that, but times have changed. Having a head coach who cares deeply about his players, runs their program ethically, and builds the trust of families to mentor and educate recruits is not as much of a differentiator as it used to be. There are so many coaches that offer that now, and I don't think any coaches in Div I have that as their iconic brand the way Chaney and Thompson did.
Philadelphia is still a talent rich area, but it isn't retaining its recruits the way it did in bygone eras. Recruiting is a national game.
Maybe Temple can become a perennial power again, but I won't predict seeing them in the top 20 very often from here - with or without Dunphy.
This is so laughably ignorant it makes my head hurt. It's the same loser mentality they have at Penn, which I know all too well. Is making the Sweet Sixteen once in 12 years higher expectations than we should be 'entitled' to? No one is expecting Temple to win championships, but is it too much to ask to be in that realm once in 12 years? No.
There is nothing conceivably better about Villanova other than being in a suburban (read: sterile) environment.
Our facilities are top-notch, which is why NBA teams use them when they are here. Jason Kidd stopped by to talk to our players after practice. That doesn't happen at many places around the country.
I'm sick of the loser mentality people have about/for Temple. There is no reason we cannot be great in football and basketball. Dunphy is not the person to get us there. Being a nice guy who recruits good people who graduate isn't good enough in 2018.
I aspire for Temple to achieve greatness and so does everyone else here.
The message that proves the point that you over-estimate Temple's natural (coach aside) place in the current basketball world. How fantastic that you don't have a loser's mentality. I'm not trying to insult Temple. I just think it's a tougher sell for recruits who have more and better options than you think.
Rrrrrright. Which is why Temple Football players have turned down offers from schools like Vandy, Northwestern, Michigan State, Alabama, Boston College, Virginia, UNC, etc. in the last few years.
Tough sell my butt.
The highest ranking for Temple Football has been in the 21 to 22 range. Credit to them, as I never thought they'd get that high. But it's still not a team that you'd expect to finish in the top 16. So I'm afraid the point about your expectations still stands. Glad to hear your strong support for Temple. I generally root for their success. I just think Temple needs a super-coach, which Dunphy may not be. Temple does have an excellent basketball history. I still think any coaching staff will have their work cut out for them restoring the glory.
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Tiger69
Postdoc
Posts: 2818
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-21-18 11:10 PM - Post#244348
In response to Penndemonium
Temple? Sounds like a school for Hasidics. What's the mascot?
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23480
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-22-18 09:15 AM - Post#244357
In response to Tiger69
Your brain
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-22-18 02:10 PM - Post#244382
In response to JHG722
Yeah, because West Philly is Malibu, right?
We have a little thing called an Ivy degree, it is MUCH better than North Philly, and we're not winning like we used to either. Times and circumstances change.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-22-18 02:54 PM - Post#244385
In response to Quakers03
Again, I wasn't trying to bash Temple or start any disparagement. I am a fan of Temple and Dunphy. I just was saying (in light defense of Dunphy) that I don't think it's a job where anyone should succeed. Temple is a fine school, but it does not have a national reputation, a broad TV audience, favoritism from the athletic apparel companies, campus environment, and widely followed basketball conference that the very top kids are looking for.
The Temple fan acknowledged that making the sweet 16 once in a while is not the same as expecting them to be a national power. There are many more than 16 teams that do have those advantages. I don't think it will even be easy to accomplish a sweet 16 once in a while.
If Temple does move on from Dunphy, it will need a coach who can leap the hurdles. Those coaches are hard to find. I wouldn't underestimate how good of a coach Dunphy is. He took you guys to the tournament every year from 2008-2012 after inheriting a program that had faltered under Chaney. He was the 2008 Atlantic 10 coach of the year and the 2016 AAC coach of the year. He brought you guys an AAC season championship only 1.5 years ago.
I understand the frustration with all of the first round tournament losses. We shared that frustration at Penn. Many Penn fans weren't sad to see him go at the time, thinking we had natural advantages in the Ivy League and that even a Brown coach could replicate his success. We went through a long walk lost in the desert after he left. It has taken us 12 years to become relevant again.
Dunphy is very respected throughout the profession and by Philadelphia area HS coaches. He is a great team leader and program organizer, a so-so game manager, and a below average tournament coach. He does a good job at developing talent. I really don't know much about his recruiting these days. It was hard for me to complain about his NCAA performance at Penn since we were a massive underdog in EVERY game and we had a chance to win many of them.
Maybe Temple can do better than Dunphy, but I'm willing to wager the next coach does worse.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1903
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-22-18 03:05 PM - Post#244387
In response to Penndemonium
I just took a closer look at Dunphy's coaching record at Temple. He has 20+ win seasons and 10+ conference wins in 8 out of his 12 seasons at Temple. He brought them from 9th in the AAC to 1st in 2 years. Temple went to the tournament in 7 of those years and made the NIT semifinals in the other. Sounds like he is a heck of a coach that is having a down period. I don't know the Temple roster well enough to know if they had bad graduation or injury losses.
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