Paulie777
PhD Student
Posts: 1767
Reg: 11-11-07
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10-14-22 06:19 PM - Post#345235
Should Bucknell consider bumping down to Division III athletics? This would solve most athletic dilemmas and make us competitive again. Bucknell football would be well placed and the basketball team could finish second or third in their new league. Athletes could keep their high quality academics and be stars again in their respective sports.
With the addition of Loyola and Boston U a decade back the patriot league would be fine and there is no shame in joining a league that fits us.
I myself would prefer to be competitive in Division 1 but it seems the Bucknell powers that be do not share in this sentiment. Its going to be another tough year watching the train wreck of a basketball program at least from a fan's standpoint lose week after week and in a helpless fashion.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-14-22 06:48 PM - Post#345243
In response to Paulie777
Sorry, but a terrible idea. Even with football and men's basketball in the doldrums, most Bucknell sports are well above average in the PL. They just need to level the playing field in terms of scholarships and other items.
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Bison54
PhD Student
Posts: 1800
Reg: 11-18-09
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10-15-22 01:45 PM - Post#345249
In response to Bison137
Holding their own against Yale for a half. Yale is not Temple, but still they are 3-1
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Bison54
PhD Student
Posts: 1800
Reg: 11-18-09
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10-15-22 03:18 PM - Post#345251
In response to Bison54
4 Interceptions and no passing game.....When is Georgetown?
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Bison7882
Junior
Posts: 253
Reg: 11-24-13
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Bucknell to Division III athletics?
10-15-22 07:47 PM - Post#345256
In response to Bison137
The problem is that leveling is unlikely to occur. The Bucknell administration and Board of Trustees doesn't show any indication of caring. My wife and I were classmates and our son and his wife (and her Dad) graduated from Bucknell. We're exactly the type of family that fits the university's business model. But my wife and I are disgusted with the direction Bucknell has taken. It's telling that it took alumni who care to spend their own money to provide a venue that promotes free speech for students and faculty. Yet this effort was opposed by a large segment of the faculty. The football program is a disgrace. In basketball we're now projected to finish in the bottom tier of the PL. Nathan Davis has run the program into the ground since Paulson's recruits graduated but he won't be fired no matter how bad the team performs (I won't address the reason why but we all know it). The men's lacrosse program is now a shadow of its former self. Other than women's basketball and maybe water polo there is no other sport that is competitive. We've been generous financial supporters of Bucknell since we graduated. No more. We'll drive out to Lewisburg occasionally to visit the antiques venues and Jackass Brewing but we have no more interest - financially or otherwise - in Bucknell. If you told me 10 years ago I'd make that statement I'd have told you you're crazy. Good luck, Bucknell.
Edited by Bison7882 on 10-15-22 07:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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Re: Bucknell to Division III athletics?
10-15-22 11:21 PM - Post#345259
In response to Bison7882
The problem is that leveling is unlikely to occur. The Bucknell administration and Board of Trustees doesn't show any indication of caring. My wife and I were classmates and our son and his wife (and her Dad) graduated from Bucknell. We're exactly the type of family that fits the university's business model. But my wife and I are disgusted with the direction Bucknell has taken. It's telling that it took alumni who care to spend their own money to provide a venue that promotes free speech for students and faculty. Yet this effort was opposed by a large segment of the faculty. The football program is a disgrace. In basketball we're now projected to finish in the bottom tier of the PL. Nathan Davis has run the program into the ground since Paulson's recruits graduated but he won't be fired no matter how bad the team performs (I won't address the reason why but we all know it). The men's lacrosse program is now a shadow of its former self. Other than women's basketball and maybe water polo there is no other sport that is competitive. We've been generous financial supporters of Bucknell since we graduated. No more. We'll drive out to Lewisburg occasionally to visit the antiques venues and Jackass Brewing but we have no more interest - financially or otherwise - in Bucknell. If you told me 10 years ago I'd make that statement I'd have told you you're crazy. Good luck, Bucknell.
I won’t go into all of these issues, but a few comments:
1. From what I have heard, I believe thatif the men’s basketball team has a poor season this year that ND will be fired.
2. I guess it depends on your definition, but there are many Bucknell sports teams that are not only “competitive” but above average. For example, women’s soccer won the patriot league last year and currently sits in first place after a nice win at Boston University today. Field hockey has been above average, men’s swimming and women’s swimming have been above average. Men’s track and women’s track have been above average. Men’s cross country and women’s cross country have been above average. The last few items are true despite army and navy having a massive advantage in swimming, track, and cross country.
Also men’s water polo has been above average. Men’s tennis has improved significantly and should be above average this year in the PL. Men’s golf is at least average for the PL. Until this past spring, women’s water polo has been way above average. Baseball has clearly been better than the other private PL schools. Etc.
3. Although the playing field still is not equal between Bucknell and the more serious PL schools, note that the gap has been closed significantly in men’s lacrosse and men’s soccer recently. Those two sports now for the first time have scholarships and figure to get better over the next four years.
4. In the 30+ years of the patriot league, Bucknell has never even come close to finishing in the second half of the President’s Cup standings. Its worst finish ever is fifth out of 10 schools, and that year they were light years ahead of number six. It is somewhat unlikely any school will beat out Army and Navy again, unless the rules are changed dramatically, but Bucknell certainly is among the better private schools compared to other league members. Having said that, I would like to see Bucknell consistently no worse than third in this competition, and that’s what alumni need to push for. Those who see the value of athletics to BU need to forcefully tell Dr. Bravman and the BOT that fifth place is not acceptable.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-16-22 12:04 AM - Post#345261
In response to Bison137
In the above, I forgot to mention a couple of items:
1. Women’s rowing has always been above average in the patriot league.
2. Wrestling has been above average in the EIWA in six of the past seven years.
3. From 2013-19, Bucknell was consistently above average in PL softball. Unfortunately they lost two coaches in a row due to circumstances having nothing to do with Bucknell or the program. Having no permanent coach on board for well over a year seriously hurt recruiting and the program suffered. However I think there is a good chance that you will see softball above average again in a couple of years.
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DrBison
Junior
Posts: 244
Age: 73
Reg: 12-22-08
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Re: Bucknell to Division III athletics?
10-16-22 07:27 PM - Post#345280
In response to Bison7882
Thank you 7882 for the post. As a local with inside knowledge you have stated the obvious. This Administration, faculty, and trustees, with a few exceptions, could care less about wins and losses or winning championships. Giving students a “great Division 1 athletic experience” and having the leading academic index and the most scholar - athletes is the priority. I truly feel sorry for the student athletes and coaches, but like you, I will no longer support an institution, my alma mater, where losing is ok and acceptable, and winning is not important.
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bison63
Postdoc
Posts: 3857
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-17-22 10:34 PM - Post#345293
In response to Bison137
In the above, I forgot to mention a couple of items:
1. Women’s rowing has always been above average in the patriot league.
2. Wrestling has been above average in the EIWA in six of the past seven years.
3. From 2013-19, Bucknell was consistently above average in PL softball. Unfortunately they lost two coaches in a row due to circumstances having nothing to do with Bucknell or the program. Having no permanent coach on board for well over a year seriously hurt recruiting and the program suffered. However I think there is a good chance that you will see softball above average again in a couple of years.
Your points are well taken 137, but frankly the only people who care about most of those other sports are the ones playing them and maybe the alums who once played them. The marquis sports are football and basketball ( and at Bucknell FB may be a stretch at this point) and at the moment the woman’s basketball program is more worthy of attention than the mens. Lacrosse can generate some visibility as well, and it will be good if as you say that program comes back. I just don’t get any feeling that with thiS AD there is any plan or goal as to where we need to be in the marquis sports. He is no Hartzell or Hardt, and I really hoped for more than we are getting athleticswise when Bravman came in. Isn’t it about time for him to be moving on?
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mcapodee
Sophomore
Posts: 156
Reg: 01-29-06
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10-18-22 11:18 AM - Post#345297
In response to bison63
Plenty of Division 1 schools don't sponsor football including three in our league. Just cut it and spend it elsewhere, especially basketball.
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Paulie777
PhD Student
Posts: 1767
Reg: 11-11-07
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Bucknell to Division III athletics?
10-18-22 11:30 AM - Post#345299
In response to mcapodee
I'm too young for the Harley-Danzig era, and I wistfully missed the breakin' Bison, But I am thankful I got to see the Paulson-Muscala era. I absolutely loved going to the Bucknell-Lehigh games with Muscala and crew taking on a confident McCollum Lehigh team. I still remember waking up on a Saturday morning and heading over to Sojka to watch an exceptional Bucknell team take on a top 25 Wake Forest team. Thats what I want again I guess I am asking for too much. Right now the basketball team is lackluster from coach on down and I have to accept that. Right now Bucknell is selling an athletic program to a prospective student much like a used car salesman shills a car with little substance. Yes, the academics at Bucknell still are great, But Football and now basketball are elephants in the room and the administration and AD are taking the money and looking the other way. It doesn't have to be like this.
Edit: I can't put it all in but Flannery, McNaughten, Griffins mojo and the NCAA"S big dance also.
Edited by Paulie777 on 10-18-22 11:38 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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bison75
Masters Student
Posts: 487
Reg: 01-26-06
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10-18-22 11:44 AM - Post#345300
In response to Paulie777
Dropping football, if it was ever under consideration, is surely off the table since the Pascucci family donated all that money to upgrade the facilities. That ship has sailed, at least for the foreseeable future.
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HuskyColonial
PhD Student
Posts: 1976
Age: 50
Reg: 02-17-12
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10-18-22 04:29 PM - Post#345305
In response to bison75
With the football facility upgrades, where does Bucknell now rank in the Patriot League in facilites? Lower middle?
I don’t think dropping football is the solution. I think you weather this storm as best you can and then wait for a change from the Administration.
It’s a long painful wait. Bucknell men’s basketball was needlessly destroyed and it’s devastating. Notice the Fire ND calls went away because we all collectively realized this administration doesn’t care. It’s sad, preventable, but not without plenty of precedent.
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Scotty-14
Sophomore
Posts: 156
Age: 31
Reg: 10-10-18
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10-19-22 02:53 PM - Post#345324
In response to HuskyColonial
Terminate Football. That's the answer.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-19-22 05:25 PM - Post#345330
In response to HuskyColonial
With the football facility upgrades, where does Bucknell now rank in the Patriot League in facilites? Lower middle?
I don’t think dropping football is the solution. I think you weather this storm as best you can and then wait for a change from the Administration.
There have been some facility upgrades for football: new turf practice field, huge scoreboard upgrade, new press box, etc. However construction on the largest upgrade is starting soon, i.e. the new football/lacrosse Pascucci Center, which will include offices, locker rooms, weight rooms, large meeting rooms, etc. When that is completed, Bucknell will be no worse than middle-of-the-pack in the PL. The top of the rankings mostly depends on how much you value having a large indoor practice facility. If cold and/or precipitation bothers your players, then that might be a big deal. Only Holy Cross and Lehigh (on the drawing board) have that sort of facility.
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Bison137
Professor
Posts: 16147
Reg: 01-23-06
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10-19-22 05:26 PM - Post#345331
In response to bison75
Dropping football, if it was ever under consideration, is surely off the table since the Pascucci family donated all that money to upgrade the facilities. That ship has sailed, at least for the foreseeable future.
Yes, definitely true.
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MrPhillie
Postdoc
Posts: 2757
Loc: NE PA
Reg: 07-14-08
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10-19-22 06:11 PM - Post#345332
In response to Bison137
I understand why it won’t happen now, but dropping football seems like a worthy consideration given the lack of competitiveness, lack of fan interest, lack of student interest, lack of administration caring, and the fact it prob loses money.
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A Western Bison
Sophomore
Posts: 179
Age: 65
Loc: Albuquerque
Reg: 07-05-12
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Bucknell to Division III athletics?
10-19-22 06:50 PM - Post#345333
In response to MrPhillie
Football players are student athletes, and contribute to the fabric of student life at Bucknell while obtaining that education. I am beyond impatient with the administrative responsibility for the conditions which permit this program to struggle. I have seen nothing from the University leadership, other than a donation envelope. I read that strategic document earlier this year. It was long on fundraising but short on a real vision. Where is the stewardship? These programs deserve better.
Edited by A Western Bison on 10-19-22 06:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Paulie777
PhD Student
Posts: 1767
Reg: 11-11-07
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Bucknell to Division III athletics?
10-19-22 08:06 PM - Post#345334
In response to A Western Bison
Its the Bucknell formula. From William Bucknell on down, the big hitters shore up the school, the resiliency continues, Bucknell survives another day. The signature Bucknell student comes to the University on the hill and life continues. My favorite Big hitter is William Graham, who took matters into his own hands when wrestling was dropped in 2005. I never was a fan of wrestling but after what he did just the respect I have made me a mini fan and follower of Bucknell wrestling. I don't think he would have tolerated poor stewardship, and Mitchell and Hardt got it done.
Football really in my time has been just "there" more so because we can say the university has a team more than anything else. I've seen more excitement and hype over the september gatherings and bounce houses at the stadium before a game than in the game itself. Its toeing the line into dysfunctional in my opinion how the team just exists and nothing more. Just my thoughts.
Perhaps this has infected basketball?
Edited by Paulie777 on 10-19-22 08:17 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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