Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-16-23 11:00 PM - Post#349746
I know she’ll never do it, but we have no future with this current coach. None. That offensive performance today was the worst I’ve seen in a decade. To say that Mitch had them ready for whatever Penn calls offense is an understatement. I get that Jordan isn’t healthy but that was a disgrace. No ball movement. No open looks. Nothing. Jordan has been carrying Steve for a while and this is a new low. Funny how Mitch runs his freshman out there and they’re able to grow and develop. Not Steve! Nope. Better get George more minutes…I haven’t been this disappointed in Penn basketball in ten years. And the students actually came out too!! Why would they ever come back.
Congrats also to the refs for taking over that game (not that Penn had a chance). Once it was 5-0 fouls in favor of Penn you knew what was coming. 7 straight and some game changers too. Can’t remember the last time I saw the made 3 pointer plus the away from the ball foul called. And that same ref, who has gotten us many times before, calls it twice. Remarkable. Imagine if Princeton wasn’t 4-25 from 3. In what is supposed to be an up year, we are approaching new lows. And there’s no hope in site. What’s the plan here? Mediocrity for the foreseeable future? Sneak into the tournament, get hot, and grab a 15/16 seed? That’s what we’re playing for these days? Does anyone even care…
I hope all of you are well.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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 01-16-23 11:03 PM - Post#349749
In response to Quakers03
While I wouldn't disagree about this game, thanks for brightening our day.
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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01-16-23 11:05 PM - Post#349750
In response to Penndemonium
I’ve had it. We don’t deserve this. The only school who still has consistent support and year after year they show they don’t care. Imagine if they didn’t have the best gym in the country…
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21220
Reg: 12-02-04
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01-16-23 11:08 PM - Post#349751
In response to Quakers03
This is how I’ve felt as a Cub fan over the past 5-6 years. Just starting to come out of the doldrums but two rebuilds in less than 10 years for a major market team with the most loyal fans in pro sports?
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dperry
Postdoc
Posts: 2214
Loc: Houston, TX
Reg: 11-24-04
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Re: Time for a Change
01-16-23 11:21 PM - Post#349754
In response to Quakers03
Funny how Mitch runs his freshman out there and they’re able to grow and develop. Not Steve! Nope. Better get George more minutes…
The issue there is that Mitch's freshmen are capable of growing and developing, and ours aren't, not to mention that we only have two freshmen to begin with.  The problem tonight is that we were trying to have a 6'4" guy and a 6'1" guy play hero ball against waves of 6'6" and up guys who have talent. The same was true with the women (sorry for posting the game thread to the wrong forum, by the way): they had a 6'1" girl and a 5'9" girl playing heroine ball against waves of 6'3" and 6'4" girls. The fact is that we are getting outrecruited something awful right now, particularly on the men's side. I have to admit that Mike James was right; Donahue is not the answer. I think the men's alumni need to get together like Harvard's did and make it rain to get a better coach.
David Perry
Penn '92
"Hail, Alma Mater/Thy sons cheer thee now
To thee, Pennsylvania/All rivals must bow!!!" |
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scoop85
Freshman
Posts: 64
Loc: Goshen, NY
Reg: 02-16-12
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01-16-23 11:49 PM - Post#349757
In response to dperry
As a Cornell guy with a Penn professional degree, I thought Donahue would be very successful with the Quakers. But truth be told he wasn’t a great recruiter at Cornell, as key guys like Dale and Foote ended up in Ithaca largely by accident. I figured with the advantages at Penn he’d be able to recruit at a higher level, but that just doesn’t seem to be the case. And he hasn’t been able to replicate the offensive success from his glory days; tonight was a debacle, and by the second half Dingle showed no interest in doing anything other than going 1 on 4 or 5 each trip down the court, as he must’ve figured that was a better option than passing to his offensively challenged teammates.
I can get that your frustration as Penn fans is boiling over, and I don’t blame many of you for calling for a change.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-16-23 11:56 PM - Post#349760
In response to scoop85
It wasn't a popular stance when I said it last year and this pre-season and I understand why but so far hopefully everyone can see it... their is simply not enough talent or athleticism on this roster. That is the failure of the staff and it starts with the HC. It's honestly as simple as that
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-17-23 12:38 AM - Post#349766
In response to Penndemonium
While I wouldn't disagree about this game, thanks for brightening our day.
Not trolling and 2 serious questions for you as one of the multiple folks here who has supported continuing as we are… any other please chime in here as well.
1. What evidence do you see that this can grow beyond the consistently mediocre Ivy League performance we’ve seen outside of 1 season, 5 years ago (the last time we actually beat Princeton).
2. What could this coaching staff do in your mind to merit dismissal and moving on?
I used to follow recruiting very closely and really enjoyed it. After continual disappointment and frankly disastrous results on recruiting bigs over the last couple years, I stopped following altogether.
Posters who I respect have told us as a group (and others have told me privately) that our recruiting efforts are let’s say suboptimal (though frankly nychoops politely basically said the staff wasn’t doing its job).
Over the last 8 years we have had two of the best offensive players in Penn history and we have 1 championship (when everyone else sucked) and a 16 seed. Over that span we have never been a top 100 team.
What more does anyone need to see?
I think this staff has great people who care, but can’t out recruit or out coach the opponents. Since the one championship 5 years ago it has been essentially downhill. I’m thankful for Coach Donahue and staff for bringing Penn back to respectability, but sports are played to win and there are 0 signs that this is going anywhere but sideways at best. If that’s the best we can do, my time spent as a fan will likely also continue the trend downward to none.
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-17-23 12:52 AM - Post#349767
In response to nychoops
It wasn't a popular stance when I said it last year and this pre-season and I understand why but so far hopefully everyone can see it... their is simply not enough talent or athleticism on this roster. That is the failure of the staff and it starts with the HC. It's honestly as simple as that
I agreed with it then as I agree with it now. I hadn't seen your post yet, but you basically summed it up in the simplest way possible.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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01-17-23 03:19 AM - Post#349769
In response to Mike Porter
Being a fan of the team and coaching staff has been a bit tricky. They give us hope in some seasons by over-performing, and then we get a season like this.
I do love some things about this coaching staff. They recruit players who represent the school well. Our teams always play hard and together. They learn how to be a team. I loved how teams like the Jelani Williams team and the Foreman team showed such incredible passion and love for each other.
On the negatives, as much as we had high hopes this season, NYCHoops is right. We just aren't that talented. We have players with an eclectic range of strengths and weaknesses. No one except Dingle is truly above the level of the league. We have been a contender every year, but an outside contender.
If I were leading the program, I would say that we have a sales (recruiting) process problem. We have the wrong process, and/or we have wrong people trying to close the sale.
I hope Slajchert learns to get his three from anywhere. I hope that Spinoso learns to nail his free throws. And I hope the team figures out defense and rebounding this season.
I won't lobby against Donahue, but I won't defend his record against win-first advocates. To be honest, even though I was an athlete at Penn, I'm pretty jaded about the universities and the role of sports overall these days. Athlete parents and alumni fans in sports have just gotten too crazy. If our players are great kids having great student athlete experiences, I'm satisfied. I might not have felt this way in the past. But given a choice to invest and fix one Penn sport, I would tell the administration to make it men's basketball.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23412
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-17-23 05:13 AM - Post#349770
In response to Penndemonium
#Done a hue
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Tiger84
Senior
Posts: 380
Age: 61
Reg: 03-06-17
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Re: Time for a Change
01-17-23 01:47 PM - Post#349795
In response to dperry
Necessity is the mother of invention. With the graduations of Llewellyn, Wright and Friberg (plus others like Johns and Barnes who had their moments), Henderson had no choice but to give some time to the freshmen and hoped they'd grow while learning the D-1 environment on the fly.
Tigers were very fortunate that Pierce was ready to contribute from day 1, and that Lee and Austin have picked things up quickly. (Side bar: I didn't like the looks of Austin as he hit the floor last night. Hope he is back quickly.)
Observation from a Tiger fan who's only seen Penn play about twice this year: Crystal ball is very cloudy with respect to the Quakers' next nine games. They could be Top 2, or 7th. Tigers showed the rest of the league the blueprint for beating Penn last night, and either Dingle needs to get healthier or Donahue needs to find a better formula.
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Penndemonium
PhD Student
Posts: 1900
Reg: 11-29-04
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Time for a Change
01-17-23 02:35 PM - Post#349796
In response to Tiger84
I actually think that Penn got plenty of decent (though not great) shots, but wasn't hitting anything. We don't have any big men who are great finishers. Spinoso made plenty of good moves and got good position, but his touch at the finish just isn't great right now. Dingle makes plenty of difficult threes, but didn't yesterday. So I'm not trying to over-react about this game. That said, our offense is relying on the three point prowess of just a few decent (but not great) three point shooters. We have a lot of volatility both between and within games as a result. Similarly, our defense doesn't pass the eye or statistical test. The laws of averages and standard deviation don't work for us this way. That observation is not an over-reaction.
We've had seasons with great first halves of the Ivy season and terrible first halves - and complete reversals in the second half. It depends a lot on roster health and the heart of the team. Hopefully we have better things in store.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21220
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Time for a Change
01-17-23 03:44 PM - Post#349801
In response to Penndemonium
The defense is pretty low variance. It has been consistently subpar all season long.
The offense is a different story. Which Jonah Charles is going to show up from game to game? He’s a weapon when hitting 3 pointers but he’s a one trick pony, and a streaky one at that. It doesn’t help matters that he cannot create his own shot. I’d like to see SD give Thrower more minutes—seems like he’s one of the only other guys on the team besides our starting guards who can create his own shot, drive and have a semblance of an outside stroke to boot.
This is very high variance offense. I doubt we have any other games this year, including at Princeton, where we hit zero 3 point shots and only 33.3% for the contest overall. Better offense, which we will get, will allow us to win some more games, which we will. But we will also have more defensive clunkers like this one which may cost us.
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nychoops
Junior
Posts: 243
Reg: 11-23-04
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01-17-23 04:39 PM - Post#349807
In response to penn nation
Gotten a few DM's so to clarify ...Im NOT criticizing the kids who play for Penn or the effort that they give and I'm DEFINITELY not suggesting they don't represent the university in a first class way. I'm simply stating that the rosters under the current coaching regime is not talented enough to have any legitimate aspirations of success
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Mike Porter
Postdoc
Posts: 3619
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-17-23 04:57 PM - Post#349809
In response to nychoops
Gotten a few DM's so to clarify ...Im NOT criticizing the kids who play for Penn or the effort that they give and I'm DEFINITELY not suggesting they don't represent the university in a first class way. I'm simply stating that the rosters under the current coaching regime is not talented enough to have any legitimate aspirations of success
YES, thank you. Feel completely the same way. I think the team is made up of a lot of great kids playing hard. The complaints are directed at the coaching staff who has "assembled" this roster of players that frankly don't stack up to the top of our league right now, let alone our own aspirations. 8 years, 0 top 100 finishes (not asking for top 25 overall here, asking for top 25-30% of all teams).
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Quakers03
Professor
Posts: 12533
Reg: 12-07-04
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Re: Time for a Change
01-17-23 05:53 PM - Post#349815
In response to Penndemonium
I actually think that Penn got plenty of decent (though not great) shots, but wasn't hitting anything.
Given that our awful offense is what prompted me to post, I have to take umbrage with this. Penn had 5 assists. 5. I know Princeton only had 6 but that was a result of knowing that they could play one on one bully ball and win, plus going 4-25 from 3. Am I missing all of these good Penn shots? I can’t think of one open, in rhythm look, outside of a deep Max corner 3, where I thought that good ball movement got them a good look. They were completely overwhelmed and without Jordan carrying them, there was nothing there. How many times in a row can we lose to this team?!
We could go down the list and ask why someone like Lucas hasn’t developed an offensive game, but one look at him in high school would would have told you that. So it all comes down to recruiting. Jonah may be a good kid, but when you can only make a 3 in the perfect situation (see Wilkes), you can’t be on the floor. Holland has shown a spark at times but I guess he doesn’t defend well enough to earn minutes?
As for the recruiting pitch, we are a top 10 university with a top 3 basketball gym, built in Big 5 games in a top 10 city with a storied basketball history. That has to be enough for more recruiting success. What exactly is Nat’s pitch? How is he selling us? They all seem like great guys who graduate great men, but something is missing. We can’t just blame the fin aid structure. This is something bigger. Respected (and non-respected) posters have been hinting or loudly beating this drum for a while and I don’t think there are many questions left. Only question is what comes next. Alana has known Steve for a LONG time…
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Time for a Change
01-17-23 07:45 PM - Post#349823
In response to Tiger84
Tigers showed the rest of the league the blueprint for beating Penn last night, and either Dingle needs to get healthier or Donahue needs to find a better formula.
As I noted in the game thread, Dartmouth’s 2nd half approach on Saturday of going to repeated post isolations laid down the blueprint. Mitch and his assistants, not being dumb, merely copied this. The fact that this strategy has now succeeded in successive games definitely will encourage the rest of the league to lean on it more if they’ve got anybody with a semblance of a low post game. This includes not only frontcourt players but big guards who can score when starting with their back to the basket.
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10Q
Professor
Posts: 23412
Loc: Suburban Philly
Reg: 11-21-04
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01-19-23 11:58 AM - Post#349868
In response to Chip Bayers
But at least we figured out how to shoot free throws.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6413
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Time for a Change
01-19-23 01:57 PM - Post#349869
In response to Chip Bayers
Not sure Princeton got it from Dartmouth. The Princeton games have been playing out this way for years. We would rather make them make contested 2s backing a guy down then leave them open for 3s and layups. So we allow them to isolate and beat us one on one. Which they keep doing. We are well prepared and impact their offense every game. Throttled Kellman. Kept Tosan from distributing. Defended the 3 point line. But they fall back into something they beat us at every single time. Which is someone abusing us on the back downs. This year it was Tosan.
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