jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 215
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-07-23 08:32 PM - Post#353405
In response to penn nation
So what has he added? His game is offense which has improved. I never denied that. He still isn't much of a passer and can't play much defense. When he is not hitting his shots, Penn suffers and that was apparent last weekend.
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Chip Bayers
Professor
Posts: 7001
Loc: New York
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-07-23 08:39 PM - Post#353406
In response to jeromelh
Hi Chip
You are still missing my point. When this debate began, I never criticized Dingle's offense and that it didn't get better. It is his lack of assists, poor defense, and mediocre passing. This has not improved.
I don't know who the POY should be, honestly. However, Tosan has never been a great scorer and I regret that he has never developed a 10-15 foot jumper. However, he leads that Ivy League in assists. He has an uncanny ability to find the open man. His assist level would even be higher if the Tigers were a better 3 point shooting team. He is also a superb defensive player.
If you want to claim that Dingle is a much better offensive player than Tosan, you won't get any argument from me.
Right, you’re not criticizing his offense, except you are because you’re criticizing hs assist #s, which you’re then doubling up on by also also criticizing his passing (I’d really love to know what’s wrong with the Dingle passes that don’t result in assists).
Dingle is not a poor defender. He is an adequate defender who could be better. In the same way Tosan has multiple parts of his overall game which could be better.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-07-23 09:21 PM - Post#353408
In response to jeromelh
So what has he added? His game is offense which has improved. I never denied that. He still isn't much of a passer and can't play much defense. When he is not hitting his shots, Penn suffers and that was apparent last weekend.
He has considerably added to his offensive arsenal each and every season. This season he has gotten to the line, by far, more than any Ivy player and made 24 more FTs in conference play than his nearest competitor. That is quite remarkable considering what his game was like as a freshman.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-07-23 09:28 PM - Post#353409
In response to penn nation
Dingle plays defense, gets rebounds and handles the ball. There is no legitimate criticism of his game at this level. He is the best player in the League, playing on a team that has no other really physical specimens. So he gets beaten up and still puts up numbers that far out-match anyone else. It's not any criticism of any other player--but Jordan Dingle would make Yale or Princeton an undefeated team in this League.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4919
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-07-23 10:09 PM - Post#353411
In response to palestra38
Undoubtedly his efficiency would be off the charts if he didn't have to have the level of usage required to keep Penn in games. He looks to be in excellent physical condition, but anybody not at NBA levels of fitness and physical maturity would tire out somewhat in that role.
Maybe it's just because I don't care very much about all these individual awards, but I have no problem with Dingle getting voted POY. Tosan had an excellent year, and if the Tigers manage to execute a season sweep of Penn, an exorcism against Yale, and a good performance or shocker in the Big Dance, all of this will be long forgotten. If they don't, then complaints will also seem beside the point.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-07-23 10:12 PM - Post#353412
In response to SRP
Yes. I'm with you on the insignificance of individual Ivy awards. I just was taken aback on the attack on Dingle's game. He is a great player. No objective person can really dispute that.
But I would trade it all for one basket in the last 3 minutes last Saturday.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-07-23 10:13 PM - Post#353414
In response to SRP
I don't know what Dingle's ORAT or efficiency rating was for the first half of Saturday's game, but both had to be off the charts. He still ended up a pretty decent ORAT (better than Tosan) for the game despite running out of gas, primarily because he was unconscious in the first 20 minutes.
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SRP
Postdoc
Posts: 4919
Reg: 02-04-06
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03-07-23 10:17 PM - Post#353416
In response to palestra38
One thing underrated about NBA superstars IMO is their ability to play hard for so many minutes (even in these days of "load management"--if anything that makes them work harder when they do hit the court).
I think I was first struck by this years ago at a game where Kevin Garnett was visiting the Mavs while playing for the Timberwolves. He wasn't only super-talented, he was involved in the outcome of every possession on both sides of the ball, like a giant Energizer Bunny. Antetekoumpo is similar in that respect. And you could see, toward the end of last year, when Chris Paul's age was maybe catching up to him a little bit and he couldn't expend the same two-way effort deep into playoff series.
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SomeGuy
Professor
Posts: 6415
Reg: 11-22-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-07-23 10:27 PM - Post#353419
In response to jeromelh
You stated he hadn’t improved. Full stop. You didn’t specify offense or defense. Now you’ve backtracked to say he improved on offense and not on defense. Great (though you then proceed to nonetheless question his passing , which is part of, you know, offense).
On the passing thing, note that his assist percentage is higher than any Princeton player other than Tosan. He isn’t elite, but he is a good passer.
We’ve probably gone around the circle enough on defense, but I’ll reiterate — he has improved a lot over 3 years.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-07-23 10:45 PM - Post#353420
In response to SRP
This is why Michael Jordan will always be #1 in my book. He was "on" for every single game, well aware that for some this was the first time they would see him perform--and perform he did, night in and night out.
He never, ever, took a night off. He was the ultimate competitor and took basketball to new heights, figuratively and literally, in the process. And as unbelievable as he was in the regular season, he was unsurpassed in the playoffs.
One thing underrated about NBA superstars IMO is their ability to play hard for so many minutes (even in these days of "load management"--if anything that makes them work harder when they do hit the court).
I think I was first struck by this years ago at a game where Kevin Garnett was visiting the Mavs while playing for the Timberwolves. He wasn't only super-talented, he was involved in the outcome of every possession on both sides of the ball, like a giant Energizer Bunny. Antetekoumpo is similar in that respect. And you could see, toward the end of last year, when Chris Paul's age was maybe catching up to him a little bit and he couldn't expend the same two-way effort deep into playoff series.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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Re: Pennsylvania
03-08-23 12:10 AM - Post#353421
In response to palestra38
It's not any criticism of any other player--but Jordan Dingle would make Yale or Princeton an undefeated team in this League.
Yeah, our Princeton colleagues don't seem to grasp this. I've made the point before in the opposite direction in that there is zero chance Penn makes the ILT the past couple of years without Dingle. There is so much pressure on him each and every game.
Edited by penn nation on 03-08-23 12:10 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-08-23 12:19 AM - Post#353423
In response to penn nation
Ok. Your guy is a great player. He earned POY. Give it a rest and play on your own board.
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-08-23 12:52 AM - Post#353427
In response to TigerFan
The Penn board gets visits from Princetonians. We've yet to ask any to leave it despite numerous disagreements on various Princeton-Penn related matters.
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LocalTiger
Masters Student
Posts: 437
Age: 58
Reg: 11-15-17
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03-08-23 09:52 AM - Post#353439
In response to penn nation
Penn must have a course in rewriting history as part of the core.
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
Posts: 338
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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03-08-23 10:34 AM - Post#353455
In response to LocalTiger
I have visited the Penn board on several occasions, but not to criticize the players, coaches or Penn's passionate posters. I believe SD is an excellent coach and I said on many occasions that Dingle should be POY. Tosan had a better year last season because he had a better team. Penn posters frequently engage in "discussions" well beyond their sell-by date, but that's just the passion showing.
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palestra38
Professor
Posts: 32877
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-08-23 10:47 AM - Post#353461
In response to ToothlessTiger
[and the age of the posters]
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penn nation
Professor
Posts: 21272
Reg: 12-02-04
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03-08-23 10:53 AM - Post#353462
In response to ToothlessTiger
Right, it's not a blanket statement about all Princeton posters (and the same is true for Penn posters).
We're a diverse lot.
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jeromelh
Junior
Posts: 215
Age: 81
Reg: 03-30-17
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03-08-23 11:35 AM - Post#353465
In response to palestra38
None of this was meant to be an attack. I was trying to point out what he needed to improve on to get to the next level. I regret making my first post and will not discuss further
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TigerFan
PhD Student
Posts: 1892
Reg: 11-21-04
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03-08-23 06:33 PM - Post#353491
In response to jeromelh
I've heard around 5,000 tickets have been sold already for Saturday's mens' games, with several hundred already sold in the 300 level. Looking forward to the games! Go Tigers!
(Awaiting the inevitable competitive posts from Quacker fans about how superior they believe their tomb in West Philly is...)
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ToothlessTiger
Senior
Posts: 338
Age: 76
Reg: 03-28-15
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03-08-23 06:41 PM - Post#353495
In response to TigerFan
Their " tomb" is superior
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